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Quiffmiester

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Friday, November 18th 2011, 3:43pm

racism - still relevant?

I was pondering several unrelated things today, and my mind wandered onto the recent scandals in football (in the UK) over a few recent reports of racism in football - in particular, the 'John Terry' incident. For those of you who aren't familiar with the story, John Terry (footballer - plays for Chelsea and England) was caught by an anonymous 3rd party shouting a "racist remark" to a player on the opposing team. The person who reported it didn't hear it - they saw it (lip read) from the TV footage I believe. The player of whom the remark was made (Anton Ferdinand) claimed not to have heard the remark, but the incident is currently under some form of official investigation by the Football Association and (I believe) the police.

I found the video footage through a google search (John Terry racist I think came up with the goods) as I was intrigued to see what had caused such a stir. It appears he said 'black :censored:', and even though I can't lipread the video footage looks very convincing. Especially when John Terry subsequently claimed he said 'Did you think I called you a black :censored:?'. I don't believe John Terry said 'Did you think I called you', because it looks like he said ':censored:ing' on the video. Whatever he said, it was incredibly rude and I can see why people could be offended by it.

There have been a couple of other alleged racist incidents recently too, which have led to the president of FIFA appearing to put his foot in his mouth after attempting to dismiss the claims that racism isn't prevalent in Football:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/15757165.stm

The media (in the UK at least) are jumping on this probably because they want to try to make Blatter resign. Anyway, his comments made something potentially controversial click in my mind regarding the John Terry incident. To me, racism is where someone is singled as a direct result of their race and as a result is discriminated against based on their colour, and this type of behaviour is (IMO) certainly wrong. Having said that, I believe that there is a distinct difference between racism and just shouting abuse, and I would argue that what John Terry said was not racist but purely abusive. For it to be racist, I believe there would need to be evidence that the motivation for the abuse was racial, i.e. had Anton Ferdinand been white, John Terry would not have shouted abuse at him. The fact that the abuse followed a tackle suggests to me that the abuse was motivated by an action rather than someone being of a particular race.

I'm aware this is probably a controversial view, but to further my case I would encourage people to consider a few other, similar scenarios. For example, if John Terry had said (in the context of where he said 'black :censored:') 'you Fat :censored:' to a fat person, or 'you goth :censored:' to a goth, that could have been offensive to the person involved but no disciplinary action would've been taken following the match, and the police would certainly not have got involved. Furthermore, the offensive word is the same, censored word in all three examples. The only difference is the adjective used to describe the person, and hence I am in agreement with Sepp Blatter that this type of behaviour SHOULD just be settled with a handshake as any other incident where one party insulted another party on the football field should be. Overall, I have come to the conclusion that this incident has in fact highlighted society's hyper-sensitivity to race, rather than football's continuing problem with racism. But I expect (and hope) that most people would disagree, so let the debating commence!

:topicclosed:

A similar fuss was made over a comment made by Tiger Woods' former caddie at some award ceremony or other. I feel the same way about that too - not racist IMO, but potentially insulting because the caddie called Tiger an a-hole.




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This post has been edited 4 times, last edit by "Quiffmiester" (Nov 18th 2011, 3:54pm)


Treize Khushrenada

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Tuesday, December 13th 2011, 7:36pm

Racism is very much alive and well today. Look at the current anti-muslim movement (which automatically puts anyone 'brown' into a minority especially if they are Arab or suspected of being Muslim) and look at how people flipped their lids when Barak Obama was elected president. It's sad, but we still judge others based on the color of their skin.

AngelofDeath

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Wednesday, December 14th 2011, 3:59am

Racism will always be around, it's part of human nature, people will always go after anyone different than themselves. That being said, I think my generation is more tolerant than the last and that great strides have been made against racism over the past several decades.

I think one of the main reasons why people "flipped their lids" when Obama was elected was because of the huge media attention that his race got for him. The problem is that whenever someone disagrees with another person based on ideological differences, it is assumed that they disagree based on ethnic differences. In the words of Morgan Freeman: “How are we going to get rid of racism? Stop talking about it!”

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Treize Khushrenada

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Wednesday, December 14th 2011, 7:04pm

I agree, to an extent, but when opponents of Barak Obama are openly and brazenly making unsavory racist comments about him, his wife, and his father, it would be a great injustice to NOT say anything about it. Racism cant be defeated by merely turning a blind eye to it. It's the same thing for gay rights, which is why I was such a vocal advocate against the use of the word "gay" as a pejorative, simply being silent just emboldens those that seek to hurt us....

AlexDelarge

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Wednesday, December 14th 2011, 7:49pm

there is and always will be racism. There will always be many forms of racism.. unfortunately for the most part when people talk about racism what they mean is white people attacking others.

kevstawebsta

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Wednesday, December 14th 2011, 10:08pm

when people say Racism what they really mean is white on black insults and crime.

but why is it the media and police etc refuse to act on black on white crime? its stupid that white people are treated differently in our own country!
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Treize Khushrenada

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Wednesday, December 14th 2011, 11:49pm

LOL that's the most absurd thing I have ever heard in my life. When White people are a minority that has 25% less rights than the majority, then belly ache to me about black on white crime. Here in America a White man will already get 25 years for murder while a Black man will get life in prison or Death.


And after all this time, I see you're still a bigot kevstawebsta

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Thursday, December 15th 2011, 12:09am

when people say Racism what they really mean is white on black insults and crime.

but why is it the media and police etc refuse to act on black on white crime? its stupid that white people are treated differently in our own country!

Um... the media covered the racial atrocities of the Mugabe regime in Zimbabwe very well if you ask me. Blacks oppressing whites, yes. But did it appease you guys? Nope. We just got "See! I told you them blacks were naturally inclined towards greed and herd mentality and war and stupidity!" V____v

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Thursday, December 15th 2011, 5:49pm

that stephen lawrence black guy who was stabbed is on the news like every other day because a white did a racial attack on a black person.

but when a black person does a racist attack on a white person it hardly gets any reports?

my example Ross Parker who was killed by a gang of muslims who went out to find and kill white people (in our country) and if it was noticed how all medias failed to report on it properly including the left wing piece of s**T the BBC.

another example most recently a group of muslims who where stamping on a girls face where let free by a judge because as muslims "they where not use to alcohol" so does that mean on my 18th birthday I can go out stamping on peoples faces because I shouldnt be use to alcohol?

Emma west who did a rant on a tram was arrest and put in jail and originally refused bail (this has since been change I appreciate) but whilst she was refused bail a african man who was accused of raping a one month old baby was released on bail?


DIscuss

so anyone who doesnt have a left wing view is suddenly a bigiot? when the BNP come to power I hope they deport all undesirables and others (its a shame we cant rid ourside of left wing scum like your selves)
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fractal

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Thursday, December 15th 2011, 7:11pm

so anyone who doesnt have a left wing view is suddenly a bigiot[bigot]?

bigot (ˈbɪɡət)
— n a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, especially on religion, politics, or race

when the BNP come to power I hope they deport all undesirables and others (its a shame we cant rid ourside of left wing scum like your selves)

Not being left-wing doesn't make you a bigot but that quote does.

Regardless, the BNP will never come to power in Britain. The vast majority of the population are never going to vote for a stupid version of Hitler who lacks the remotest semblance of leadership ability (i.e. Nick Griffin).
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Thursday, December 15th 2011, 7:57pm

so anyone who doesnt have a left wing view is suddenly a bigiot? when the BNP come to power I hope they deport all undesirables and others (its a shame we cant rid ourside of left wing scum like your selves)

Lol, I'm not left-wing. People typically class "Individualists"/"Libertarian capitalists" as center-right. You're just suffering from Daily Mail Syndrome: you're so far right you look left and see the center, and thus conclude they're actually pinko commies out to destroy Magna Carta <_<

Nor do I believe in "enforced tolerance" (also known as affirmative action). I principally believe in freedom of speech. I just don't think legislature should favour any specific over another. You don't defeat intolerance with an iron fist, you defeat it at the social level through education, example and debate. And that is where I fight intolerance. See, I'm doing it right now! As is Fractal :)

And lol, the BNP won't get in power. We pride ourselves on being one of a few nations left opposing national socialism 70 years ago, so we're hardly going to implement it here. If they do somehow get in power, I'm gone to Canada or America. As an intelligent free-thinking atheist female bisexual with a mother who immigrated here from Italy, the BNP would probably put me in a concentration camp for being a threat to their despotic totalitarian regime <_<

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Thursday, December 15th 2011, 8:06pm

Quoted

I told you them blacks were naturally inclined towards greed and herd mentality and war and stupidity!" V____v


All peoples generally are inclined toward this behavior. Although kevsta is a bit beyond what I would say I would agree that at least in america the word racism is a word used when white people have aggression toward a minority.

when minority have aggression against white people its called frustration .

Now I can understand why some of you would see this as a bigots view point but when minority people come down my street I wave (i dont really care what skin one wheres). What do you think would happen if I decided to stroll my white ass down one of their streets?

kevstawebsta

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Thursday, December 15th 2011, 8:25pm

(im sorry if my earlier comments where some what over the top but my argument still stands)

so how comes there are no white zones in the UK?

my mother works very hard to make ends meet shame thats not for everyone eh?

http://www.eutimes.net/2010/02/single-mo…0-a-month-rent/
she gets to live in a two million pound mansion for free eh? must be nice

another example of an immigrant who live in a 1.2million pound mansion FOR FREE.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1780948.ece


but yet a SOLDIER wasnt given a house because he had no local connection. I thought being British was closer to home than being Asian?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-…ouse-local.html

if I put up a sign and did a no black area I would get arested and all over the news. but there are several no white zones in the country yet they are not brought to publics attention?
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Treize Khushrenada

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Thursday, December 15th 2011, 8:28pm

Ugh you people..............are literally killing me here........

Lets look at some simple broad truths, when your race is the majority, meaning that out of a random sampling of ten people your race constitutes 6 or more of those individuals, then a higher proportion of crime is going to be directed at you. BUT, whites are NOT being targeted because they are white, in the majority of cases. They are being targeted because on a random street, if you chose to mug someone, or randomly murder someone, the odds say the first target you meet will MOST LIKELY be white..............

In my recent memory there has not been a single hate crime towards STRAIGHT white men in America, if you're gay, then yeah, you're going to be targeted for hate crimes, if you're a white woman, you're going to be a target of crime, but heterosexual white men are never targeted by virtue of their skin color, I've walked down 'bad' streets, and I've gotten looks like 'what's this cracker doing here' type stuff, but I've never been attacked. Perhaps those 'bad' streets aren't correlating with white folk walking down them, maybe they're just not safe streets..........again, much like in the religion thread, we live in a culture where white privilege is so innate, that any attempt to balance it out with other races causes this knee jerk reaction towards the groups of people that represent the 'other' in our society. It's always them vs us, but we're all human, and gosh darn it, white people are responsible for the majority of the ills in the world, simply because we think we're better than everyone else and we don't know how to keep our damned noses out of other people's countries, lives, cultures, and business.

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kevstawebsta

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Thursday, December 15th 2011, 10:30pm

white people in the UK are due to become the minority in the Uk in less than 40 years.

there are no go areas in the UK for non muslims.

discuss.
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fractal

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Thursday, December 15th 2011, 10:45pm

white people in the UK are due to become the minority in the Uk in less than 40 years.

Citation needed.

there are no go areas in the UK for non muslims.

Citation needed.

http://www.eutimes.net/2010/02/single-mo…0-a-month-rent/
she gets to live in a two million pound mansion for free eh? must be nice


another example of an immigrant who live in a 1.2million pound mansion FOR FREE.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1780948.ece


This is fairly typical of how many parts of the press attempt (and fail) to make a convincing argument (except to the reactionary). The format goes something like this: "Here is an example of something that will definitely annoy you! This type of thing goes on all the time, we have to stop it!" If they actually wanted to make a sensible argument, they would talk about the statistics of who in the country receives what based on what conditions. Of course, they won't do that because it's not nearly as sensational.

If the benefit system in this country means a handful of people getting an unfairly good deal, I don't give a damn, it's pretty much guaranteed that in a country of 60 million, some people are going to lie well outside of a couple of standard deviations. It's how it works for the average person who needs it that I care about.

Also, the daily mail (the actual source of the top article) and other similar papers don't get business by promoting reasoned debate. They get readers by making people angry and promoting hatred. Perhaps the daily mail should actually be called the Daily Statistically Insignificant. Afterall, statistically significant events are, by and large, not newsworthy.
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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "fractal" (Dec 15th 2011, 10:50pm)


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Thursday, December 15th 2011, 11:26pm

Kev, if those muslim only zones do exist. Ever think it might be to keep out people who only seek to cause trouble amongst that culture? Think about it, if your race/religion suddenly became hated by a majority because of one massive event that the media and government blamed it for. Wouldn't you welcome the idea of a place that is safe?
I agree with you to an extent that there are some cases that don't get treated right (some worse than others) but it happens on both sides of the coin and in all other areas of -isms. Looking only at the media for help is stupid, do some study and look at actions taken by the different groups around. You might be a bit shocked by what you discover.

Also, this might just be me but it seems that the people who complain the most about Racism are often the racists?

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fractal

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Friday, December 16th 2011, 12:05am

Most the articles there imply that in certain areas of the country, there will exist regions where white people are in a minority. As there are areas of the country where there are substantially different racial mixes, it stands to reason that it's possible such an eventuality will occur in some specific areas.

The Guardian article gives mention to the idea of whites becoming a minority by 2100. So let's look at the text there

Quoted from "The Guardian"

The analysis of the figures showed that if the population of ethnic minorities grows at 4 per cent a year, whites will become a minority before 2100. The demographer who made the calculation wished to remain anonymous for fear of accusations of racism.


The question to ask yourself here is, is it reasonable to assume that ethnic minority population will grow at 4% per year? Worldwide, population growth peaked in 1962-1963 at 2.2% and has since been declining, it 2009 it had halved from that figure to 1.1% and the pressure on worldwide population growth is going to be relentlessly downward as we increasingly approach the limit of people that the planet can sustain.

A population growth of 4% per year for the next 89 years implies that the population will expand to 32x its present size at the end of the growth period! On the other hand, assuming growth will half every 30 years, which appears to be the current trend worldwide then the population will actually expand by only approximately 5x. There is also no reason to assume that this population growth rate will not even become zero or negative.

Much of this growth is being driven by immigration at present but since the economies of developing countries are growing at a rate significantly in excess of ours it is likely that there will be increasingly small pressures driving net immigration into Britain. On the other hand, people coming into and out of the country are both likely to increase as the world population becomes more mobile but we are likely to see increasingly similar amounts of people both arriving and leaving meaning that overall the amount of people in the country becomes increasingly static.
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AngelofDeath

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Monday, December 19th 2011, 1:13am

I agree, to an extent, but when opponents of Barak Obama are openly and brazenly making unsavory racist comments about him, his wife, and his father, it would be a great injustice to NOT say anything about it.


While I disagree with it, it is freedom of speech. If we won't stop people from spreading hate and racism as our soldiers' funerals, what makes you think that anything will be done about someone speaking against the President?


Racism cant be defeated by merely turning a blind eye to it.


True, but neither will favoring any race or ethnicity over another.

Example

This kind of political crap is why I claimed Native American blood on my applications to the service academies (I actually do have NA blood, but I never thought anything of it prior to applying). Trying to compensate for the lack of representation of minorities by lowering standards is unacceptable. The solution for this is to focus on improving public education in all areas of the country, not by making exceptions.

End all Affirmative Action programs and redirect the funding to improving education at the middle and high school levels in underdeveloped areas of the country. Lowering standards only increases racial tension as people view minorities as less qualified (even when that is not the case). Stop preaching equality and actually make it a level playing field. Remove the race and ethnicity questions from applications then make a decision based solely on merit. That will go farther than any affirmative action program ever will.

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