Efficient fleet ratio for fleet vs fleet big battles

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    • Efficient fleet ratio for fleet vs fleet big battles

      Alright, I was trying to calculate what's the optimal way to build a fleet only for HOFs and take full advantage of your production.

      Basically the most important question was this: [color=#000000]Is it better to build ships that cost around 3:1 (similar to my production) in a massive amount or try to have a balanced fleet (including battlecruisers and/or destroyers) in much lower numbers, due to the high crystal and deuterium cost?[/color]

      Having a strong miner's account in my region my daily production is around 53.68M metal, 13.35M crystal and 11.8M deuterium (after fuel expenses)
      I also have 1M lf, 200K cruisers, 30K bs, 20K destro, 10K bc, 500 RIPs

      The strongest fleet consists of around:

      100.000 small cargoes
      50.000 big cargoes

      2.000.000 light fighters
      500.000 heavy fighters
      300.000 cruisers
      200.000 battleships
      150.000 destroyers
      150.000 battlecruisers

      and almost 2.000 RIPs

      plus 300-500K recs

      I made some calculations based on the merchant ratio (3-2-1) and here are some alternatives that I could build:

      1) 157.000 battlecruisers and 11.8 billions spare metal
      2) 487.000 battleships and no spare resources.

      Of course some of the battleships can be transformed into light fighters as well (1:15), such as 150.000 battleships and 5 million light fighters.
      Or we could add some cruisers to the ratio and not use 100% of the deuterium to merchant.
      The point is, I could either build battlecruisers in a decent amount and have huge piles of unused metal (which wouldn't be that efficient to trade to merchant) or I could make full use of my production ratio and merchant and produce a huge amount of light fighters / cruisers / battleships.

      Considering that your production is limited, which one would be the most efficient way to build a fleet desinged to bring down another huge, balanced fleet like the one I mentioned above?
      Would it be another balanced fleet where you would have bigger numbers in every kind of ship?
      Would it be a fleet based on heavy ships? ( I highly doubt it)
      Would it be a fleet that it's fully made of lf / cruisers / battleships in tremendous numbers?
      Would it be a variation?

      Is there any chance that a huge fleet could be destroyed easier by the most cost-efficient fleet or would you have to build capital ships no matter the cost and the amount of fodder and middle - class ships you have?
      Is there any weakness in balanced fleets, except other balanced fleets that have bigger numbers?


      I don't have an aswer yet since I do not have much time to spend on calculating (exams on my master's :dead: ) and I would really like to see the thoughts and the arguements of some experienced fleeters.
      At the same time, I will keep making calculations and simulations to find out more information. :thinking:

      Thank you for your time! :thumbsup:



      P.S: Any good simulator I can use that won't crush or show inaccurate results?
      This post has already been reposted.
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    • As a general rule, the cheapest ships give the best cost/efficiency ratio. A fodder-focussed will therefore in almost all cases fare best against near-equal sized opponents. This type of fleet does however always take losses (about 1/4 to 1/3 of the damage dealt), reducing potential profits, requiring extensive rebuilding between each major hit. A heavy-focussed fleet needs a much bigger relative advantage to be useful, but once said advantage is reached can take on any opponent will minimal losses. This can most easily be seen in practice in old speeduniverses like Quantum, where most hits are done with pure Dest, pure RIPs or a Dest/BC combination.
      This is why fleets will be fodder-focussed early in the game (and if somebody is plotting to overthrow the king), while gradually shifting more and more towards heavier builds as the game progresses and a dominance established. Basically you want to go as heavy as possible when the option is there(aka. you have a massive advantage), but pretty light against equal opponents.


      Ps. I think you might only have looked at damage dealt during your calculations. If you start factoring in damage received, SC's are incredibly valuable to break the XX RF against your LF. Personally I adhere to a rule of thumb of never having my LF exceed 50% of my total amount of ships, and SC+HF always being more than 50% of my amount of LF. Right now that means 1 million SC and 1 million HF to my 3 million LF, for a total of 7,1 million ships.
      56G TD, Top 1 solo
      61G TD, Top 1 ACS
      137G TD, Top 1 solo ninja
      In order to insult me, I must first value your opinion...Nice try though.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Dark Depresion ().

    • Agreed with poster above.

      If the person you plan on hitting has a fleet only slightly smaller than yours, you'll want more fodder than him to minimize your losses in the first phases. This will get you an advantage over a prolonged fight (4+ rounds) and allow you to still turn a profit.

      If however you have a much bigger fleet than your target, you should go with more heavy ships (Dest/BC mostly) and aim to win in 2-3 rounds. An added benefit of hitting smaller fleets, obviously, is that you don't have to spend a day or two shifting enormous amounts of res around and waiting for those nanites to finish rebuilding...

      Of course, you'll have to adapt your ratio to the enemy fleet composition. One major parameter is how many RIPs he has, because those things can really make a number on a LF buffer, and make you lose a lot in the last battle round. If there are very few RIPs, you can usually take minimal losses in that last round (by then, your fleet would out-level your opponent by a lot). With the figures that the OP mentioned, it would definitely be enough to tip the scales of profit one way or another.

      Note you asked for a pure fleeter strategy, but even if you're using your heavies to destroy most fleets out there, there's no reason not to do a bit of farming if you have LFs on hand (or HF if you're going against defs with a high HL count) to complement income without spending too much deut.
      Proud member of the Pint-trilling Naked Reindeer of the Apocalypse [Naked]

      Polaris
    • Well in my hypothesis I am shifting towards the "overthrow the king" scenario, where you don't actually care a lot about the profits as long as you are 4-5 people in the ACS. All that matters is to destroy all his fleet and gather the DF, and deviding the losses.

      I understand your points though and they are quite interesting!
      Capital ships to overpower your opponents with minimal losses, fodder to beat equal or slightly stronger fleets.

      By the way I always take damage recieved into consideration, it's just that in the scenario in my head it was not that important.


      So, is there any optimal ratio of (small cargos) / lf / hf / cr / bs that you would suggest for the "overthrow the king" scenario? Of course I will run hundreds of simulations (please, suggest me some good simulators) but I am very interested in your experienced opinion as well.
      This post has already been reposted.
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    • Addicted Miner wrote:

      So, is there any optimal ratio of (small cargos) / lf / hf / cr / bs that you would suggest for the "overthrow the king" scenario? Of course I will run hundreds of simulations (please, suggest me some good simulators) but I am very interested in your experienced opinion as well.

      Dark Depresion wrote:

      Personally I adhere to a rule of thumb of never having my LF exceed 50% of my total amount of ships, and SC+HF always being more than 50% of my amount of LF. Right now that means 1 million SC and 1 million HF to my 3 million LF, for a total of 7,1 million ships.
      The 3 LF : 1 HF : 1 SC model has worked wonders for me in the past, but I also had to compete with some very cruiser oriented fleets, making LFs less useful as fodder than they normally are. Works well in most scenarios, but could perhaps be switched closer to 4:1:1 if not faced with cruiser oriented fleets.

      As for cruisers you generally want as many cruisers as you can possibly muster for such a scenario. Unless "the King" has been in the top position for so long he never really built a proper LF wall and went straight for the heavies (e.g. the ACS hit linked in my signature where the defender only had 375.000 LF in a 47 million points fleet). You want the LF gone in as few rounds as possible so the more potent firepower can be concentrated on those heavies.
      Edit: Conversely, the key to victory in near-equal matched battles, often lies in keeping your own fodderwall up as long as possible. Which is why it is so damn important to have enough HF+SCs to ensure the enemy cruisers can't tear your fodderwall to shreds.

      BS is more of a debatable subject. Excellent for taking down RIP-heavy fleets due to their easy mass-production (your only other option to take down RIPs are Dest and BC - both of which are Hell to mass-produce due to the deut cost and atrocious metal/crystal cost ratio), but also very easily countered by BC and Dest (which is again, heavily in focus in the "King" scenario).
      Basically you have to weigh the number of RIPs against the number of BC/Dest. If there is a clear focus on RIPs, go for more BS than usual. On the other hand, if there is a clear focus on BC/Dest, go for less BS and more fodder (which is the most cost efficient counter for BC/Dest).
      56G TD, Top 1 solo
      61G TD, Top 1 ACS
      137G TD, Top 1 solo ninja
      In order to insult me, I must first value your opinion...Nice try though.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Dark Depresion ().

    • In the early game, yea, you aim for the cheap firepower but when fleets grow over around 20-30Bn have to start focus on the non cost-effective stuff.

      If you are a competitive player that wants to gain and grow every way possible. You build a wide fleet with all kind of ships in it. That's what makes profit on the hits.
      If you only build a cost effective fleet with almost only light fighters, cruisers and battleships you can still have the firepower to take out your targets but the losses get a lot higher :arrow: less profit :arrow: less gain :arrow: is it REALLY cost effective in the long term :?:
      Besides, it's harder to beat a nicely balanced fleet than a massive fodder pile.

      As a miner you usually go for the shortest payback on your mines, right? Doing the same thing with your fleet is the most cost effective stuff in the long term and cheap ships is a long payback since you have to rebuild them twice a day while BC's and dessies are there to stay (unless you get crashed or screw up real' bad)

      I see a lot of people raid around with massive LF fleets and they don't make too much profit on it considering they lose up to 15-20% of the attacking fleet. Now, if they would do the same hit with destroyers about the same fleet value they would get away with losing only 1-3% of the attacking fleet which is a lot less in fleet value.

      That's how I think, It's all about the profits for me but this "overthrow the king" stuff seems weird, I might have misunderstood. Build a fleet only to take out the fleeter on the top of the food chain? You can build like 10M LF and 2M battleships and it might just take out a fleet with massive BC and dessie count but the profit would be non-existent even if you manage to harvest all the DF and then what? it's sound like a one time crash? :confused:
    • 13PR wrote:


      That's how I think, It's all about the profits for me but this "overthrow the king" stuff seems weird, I might have misunderstood. Build a fleet only to take out the fleeter on the top of the food chain? You can build like 10M LF and 2M battleships and it might just take out a fleet with massive BC and dessie count but the profit would be non-existent even if you manage to harvest all the DF and then what? it's sound like a one time crash? :confused:
      Profit and profit optimization is something you should worry greatly about - when doing those run-of-the-mill everyday type of hits. The massive game-changing type of hits often found topping the leaderboards though: not so much. Sure many of them will have billions worth of profit, but that is a secondary effect - a bonus if you will. The primary goal of those hits is shifting the powerbalance, overthrowing the old masters and creating a new dynasty.
      The object of this type of kill the king hit (and discussion we're having) is not profit-optimization but damage-optimization: Causing as much damage as possible, while taking as little damage as possible yourself. As this scenario is pretty much defined by the target being in an advantageous position, you want to find the least expensive fleet that can take him out. Profit is a very easily defineable size, but also a very immediate one. It is less tangible to put a value to taking out your contenders. We are talking everything between future hits he would have done, which you can now do instead, or potentially him crashing you down the line. Very hard to define exactly how much this is worth, which is why even though you take an immediate loss when killing the king, that same hit can be the very reason you're making billions worth of profits a few months later.

      There is that, and then there's the fact that the kill the king scenario works great both for a teoretical discussion, and as a starting point for budding fleeters. Profitoptimization is something entirely different when you are on top than when you are climbing up there. When you already are on top, profitoptimization is basically just finding out how much overkill you should send to strike a balance between fuel costs/least possible losses to rebuild. Profitoptimization when you're climbing up the leaderboards is taking out your competition (both in terms of who can hit the same targets as you, as well as those seeking to hit you) as swiftly as possible.
      56G TD, Top 1 solo
      61G TD, Top 1 ACS
      137G TD, Top 1 solo ninja
      In order to insult me, I must first value your opinion...Nice try though.
    • DarkDepresion has some very good points but I alwasy use speed sim or trash sim to do for the hit builds to maximize profits and minimize loses.

      right now my 1x fleet consists of

      121.000 LF
      92,000 HF
      18,000 crsrs
      13,000 bs
      58 rips
      4,000 desy
      and 12,000 B.C.
      and 19k recyclers and 7 k probes
      and draw with several fleets that are slightly bigger than mine heavy hull wise . and i think i keep 250 ships against a fleet thats a hundred k ships stronger than mine. they keep more fleet than i do but not buy

      much. and i would say balanced with maybe 75k bc and 80k recyclers with 50k desy 45k bs 30k crsr 200k hf and 500k LF and 400k LC and 500k SC

      I'm not pretty I'm not graceful I am the inevitable fact of truth.there is no unwinnable situation.
      ogame.support.gameforge.com/en

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Blackmass ().

    • Blackmass wrote:

      DarkDepresion has some very good points but I alwasy use speed sim or trash sim to do for the hit builds to maximize profits and minimize loses.

      right now my 1x fleet consists of

      121.000 LF
      92,000 HF
      18,000 crsrs
      13,000 bs
      58 rips
      4,000 desy
      and 12,000 B.C.
      and 19k recyclers and 7 k probes
      and draw with several fleets that are slightly bigger than mine heavy hull wise . and i think i keep 250 ships against a fleet thats a hundred k ships stronger than mine. they keep more fleet than i do but not buy

      much. and i would say balanced with maybe 75k bc and 80k recyclers with 50k desy 45k bs 30k crsr 200k hf and 500k LF and 400k LC and 500k SC
      Just one of my example fleets that I use: i.imgur.com/GK4KPdK.png The fleet cost of the two fleets is equal, calculated using 3:2:1 m:c:d , no rips included

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Coldkiller ().

    • Coldkiller wrote:

      Blackmass wrote:

      DarkDepresion has some very good points but I alwasy use speed sim or trash sim to do for the hit builds to maximize profits and minimize loses.

      right now my 1x fleet consists of

      121.000 LF
      92,000 HF
      18,000 crsrs
      13,000 bs
      58 rips
      4,000 desy
      and 12,000 B.C.
      and 19k recyclers and 7 k probes
      and draw with several fleets that are slightly bigger than mine heavy hull wise . and i think i keep 250 ships against a fleet thats a hundred k ships stronger than mine. they keep more fleet than i do but not buy

      much. and i would say balanced with maybe 75k bc and 80k recyclers with 50k desy 45k bs 30k crsr 200k hf and 500k LF and 400k LC and 500k SC
      Just one of my example fleets that I use: i.imgur.com/GK4KPdK.png The fleet cost of the two fleets is equal, calculated using 3:2:1 m:c:d , no rips included
      This pretty much confirms what was said before in this thread: the closer those fleets are in size, the more important the buffer difference between you and your opponent.

      If you're going against something your own size, you'll want LF/HF for buffer (depending on whether the opponent's fleet is Cr- or BC-oriented), and Cr to get rid of his buffer, unless he has a very large proportion of HF/SC.
      Proud member of the Pint-trilling Naked Reindeer of the Apocalypse [Naked]

      Polaris
    • From all the simulations I've done, the above fleet of 5:5:1 lf:hf:cr has done better with less losses against various smaller fleets than the above "balanced" fleets (equal fleet cost compared). That is assuming that the smaller fleet has a good number of lf. If not, then I simply remove the cruiser and the whole fleet will be 1:1 lf:hf and it still has less losses than the suggested BC+BS or w/e fleet. It sounds logical that smaller ships should take more losses than bigger ships vs smaller fleets, cuz smaller ships die easier, but weirdly or not so much the simulations I've done show otherwise
    • Often damage and profit optimisation come hand in hand.

      Techs also play a big part in a hit. For instance RIPs benefit the greatest from shield tech being higher, as they refresh every round. Speed fleet benefit from higher Armour and Weapons tech as the shields are tiny.

      my fleets are always built around a reflection of the universe, and Heavy fighters are often underrated as there has been a tendency to build monstorous BC fleets. the change recently into more dessie orientated fleets are bringing hf back into vogue, and as such 200k in a fleet can make a serious impact in the fight.

      Another consideration is fire order. by altering how you ACS your fleet you can gain BILLIONS in profit with no additional fleet. click the link in my signature and sim the fleets in 1 acs slot and see the profit outcome then ill tell you how we did it.



      Arcane
      [Muppets] - Vega
      BIGGEST x2 hit in .org


    • -Arcane- wrote:

      Another consideration is fire order. by altering how you ACS your fleet you can gain BILLIONS in profit with no additional fleet. click the link in my signature and sim the fleets in 1 acs slot and see the profit outcome then ill tell you how we did it.
      I tried and osimulate.com said that the numbers are too big for simulating, and I don't use other simulators since they differ a bit. I could of course remove a few zeroes and it will be exactly the same, but I also don't know what tech levels you used so I decided not to

      Also, since the overall number of battlecruisers is so small compared to the overall number of all the ships in a given fleet, heavy fighters are always good to build along with light fighters as a fodder in a fleet vs fleet battle. If the enemy has enough battlecruisers to make heavy fighters inefficient as a 1:1 or 1:2 (or in-between) ratio with light fighters, then they'll lose the fight anyway since even a 1:1 hf:lf ratio isn't enough for battlecruisers to be worth building in big numbers, since their metal cost of 135 000 is extremely cost inefficient for their stats, (the only worse ship in that regard are destroyers with a metal cost of 180 000, although their stats for their cost are slightly better than the battlecruiser, the latter has rapid fire against almost all combat ships while the former only has rapid fire against battle cruisers who as I said should be little compared to the overall number of ships, and even then the rapid fire is only 2 which is only a 50% chance of attacking again, the smallest rapid fire in the entire game), and even with their rapidfire they aren't good enough to be built in big numbers, at least according to the simulations, unless the enemy fleet has very little light fighters and not-a-ton of destroyers, although if they do have a ton of destroyers, this will be even worse than having a ton of battlecruisers, since the only fleet destroyers are good against is battlecruisers and deathstars, so even if fleet A has a lot of battlecruisers, if fleet B has a lot of destoyers, and everything else in both fleets is equal, then fleet A will come out as a winner since the battlecruiser is good vs any combat ship not light fighter/destroyer/deathstar, while destroyer is bad vs every ship not battlecruiser/deathstar

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Coldkiller ().

    • Numbers will differ on all sims and all hits from variations in RF.

      by optimizing the order in which the attacking ships fire, you can bring RIPS shields offline using capital ships so that you 2m lf (for instance) do actual damage and kill rips in round one rather than refrshing and allowing them to fire again the next round.

      This obviously is a massive advantage when taking on the largest fleets and took us from making profit of around 3b and Joyeuse have rips remaining after the second hit, to clearing it up in 6 rounds then 3 rounds in attack to and making 60b profit.

      #StatsPorn



      Arcane
      [Muppets] - Vega
      BIGGEST x2 hit in .org