Ion Cannon Usefulness (and breaking point)

    Good day.
    Are Ion cannons really worth it? and if so, when?
    The answer to those questions is...IT REALLY DEPENDS and if you are going to use them then be very clear in your choice.


    Lets begin. Ion cannons are often seen as useless because of their crystal cost and having less attack than a Large laser which they are often compared to. Is the Large laser better on every scenario? No. Here is why.


    I want to introduce a concept which is breaking point. This is the point where your Ion cannons lose their advantage compared to the Heavy laser (or any other fodder). But what happens before the breaking point? Simple, Ion cannons turn draws and victories into complete victories. Lets see some simulations.


    66000 Light lighter vs 15000 Heavy lasers = 39335 Light fighter remaining and 0 Heavy laser remaining
    66000 Light fighter vs 10000 Ion cannons = 40691 Light fighter remaining and 9900 Ion cannon remaining
    66000 Light fighter vs 60000 Light Laser = 3017 Light fighter remaining and 9000 Light laser remaining
    66000 Light fighter vs 60000 Rocket launcher = 23358 Light fighter remaining and 0 Rocket launcher remaining


    Yes, Yes, Yes... Defenses self repair and light lasers cause A LOT more damage but here is the catch. AS LONG AS THEIR SHIELDS ARE NOT SURPASSED (fleets without fodder or little fodder make this strategy useless) their refresh will make every round have the same effect as the last one, Close to 0. This compounds really quickly.


    76000 Light fighter vs 10000 Ion cannons = 51643 Light fighters left and 9463 Ion cannons left. (Any other of the previous defenses would be obliterated at this point)
    86000 Light fighters vs 10000 Ion cannons = 63613 Light fighters left and 7446 Ion cannons left. ( At this point even 22000 Heavy lasers or 72500 Light lasers would get obliterated)


    Now... what happens when we add the next 10000 Light fighters?... All Ion Cannons are destroyed. This is the "Breaking point".


    Why is this important? To protect your fleet. Yes the light laser deals more damage but Check this.


    66000 Light fighter + 450 Destroyers vs 60000 Light lasers + 200 Battleships = All lasers and battleships get destroyed.
    66000 Light fighter + 450 Destroyers vs 10000 Ion cannon + 200 Battleships = 7276 Ion cannon remaining and 153 Battleships remaining. So it protects any non-fodder ship orbiting in the planet by making the firepower of the fodder (which is what is killing the light lasers and then the battleships) useless.


    But wait it gets better, Lets not increase the fodder so that the breaking point remains the same and lets start adding 200 destroyers to the attacking wave.


    66000 Light fighter + 650 Destroyers vs 10000 Ion cannon + 200 Battleships = 6084 Ion cannon remaining and 133 Battleships remaining.
    66000 Light fighter + 850 Destroyers vs 10000 Ion cannon + 200 Battleships = 4839 Ion cannon remaining and 113 Battleships remaining.
    66000 Light fighters + 1050 Destroyers vs 10000 Ion cannon + 200 Battleships = 3411 Ion cannon remaining and 91 Battleships remaining.
    66000 Light fighters + 1250 Destroyers vs 10000 Ion cannon + 200 Battleships = 1612 Ion cannon remaining and 64 Battleships remaining.
    66000 light fighters + 1450 Destroyers vs 10000 Ion cannon + 200 Battleships = 162 Ion cannon remaining and 23 Battleships remaining.
    66000 light fighters + 1650 Destroyers vs 10000 Ion cannon + 200 Battleships = ALL DIE


    Even with 1600 Destroyers 1 Battleship and 1 Ion cannon survives with 90% chance.


    So, lets picture the Ion cannon as an Anti-fodder fodder. Is it worth mixing it with other defenses? Generally no.


    76000 light fighters vs 7500 Heavy lasers and 5000 Ion cannon = All your defenses die
    76000 light fighters vs 30000 Light laser and 5000 Ion cannon = All your defenses die


    When is this useful? Well... Imagine a large scale version of the Large protection dome it is not making it less cost effective to attack you but rather it is massively increasing the fleet necessary to make it worth it.
    Now... you may argue that causing damage to the attacker is more important because his losses will be higher and that makes it less likely that he will attack you. While I believe that when a larger fleet is required the attacker might chose to go for a more profitable target instead of using his larger fleet on you.
    Another thing is the higher the percentage of Debris a universe makes the more efficient this strategy is. To give an exaggerated example if there was 100% Debris generation He will not care about how many ships he loses because he will recover them all + your ships. In this case being unable to kill your ships will completely disencourage him from attacking.


    Bottom line.
    1- Do not mix Ions with other defenses. Either go full Ions or dont.
    2- Make sure that your breaking point is higher than any of the fodder that you fear attack from.
    3- The more shielding technology you have the much more effective this becomes. (if you have considerably more shielding that the enemy's Weapons technology your Ions will be able to tank Heavy fighters and cruisers)


    I hope this helps and gives you options for your defenses.

    On good days I am charming as fuck.

    Interesting read. Definitely a very different take on this topic than what is usual. Your post is still pretty much null and void, because you completely overlook the primary factor explaining why so many of us discard building the Ions; economy.
    Crystal is a very scarce and valuable ressource, and usually the choke-point for account progression. RIPs, BCs, Dest, astro, plasma tech are all late game sinkholes for crystal, and even moon expansions, gauss and plasma cannons are projects demanding eschewed resources more worthy of that precious crystal. Sure the Ion cannon is not as outright bad mathematically in a combat situation as some make it out to be, but you will be forking over load and loads of crystal for those Ions - crystal better used elsewhere.


    Having played for several years as a turtle, I can confidently say the best defences are balanced but fodder-killing focussed. Forcing a potential attacker into a situation where light-weight fleets take too heavy losses, and heavy fleets requires too much fuel to fly, is what works best for deterring attacks.

    Quote from Dark Depresion

    Interesting read. Definitely a very different take on this topic than what is usual. Your post is still pretty much null and void, because you completely overlook the primary factor explaining why so many of us discard building the Ions; economy.
    Crystal is a very scarce and valuable ressource, and usually the choke-point for account progression. RIPs, BCs, Dest, astro, plasma tech are all late game sinkholes for crystal, and even moon expansions, gauss and plasma cannons are projects demanding eschewed resources more worthy of that precious crystal. Sure the Ion cannon is not as outright bad mathematically in a combat situation as some make it out to be, but you will be forking over load and loads of crystal for those Ions - crystal better used elsewhere.


    Having played for several years as a turtle, I can confidently say the best defences are balanced but fodder-killing focussed. Forcing a potential attacker into a situation where light-weight fleets take too heavy losses, and heavy fleets requires too much fuel to fly, is what works best for deterring attacks.

    I literally started with "Lets begin. Ion cannons are often seen as useless because of their crystal cost" Also I am not comparing 10k ions with 10k heavy lasers but rather 15k to make up for market value. if you do some intense trading that can be offset. I do agree that on most cases Ions are not worth it. However, I wanted to point out that this strategy can turn your Draws and Victories into COMPLETE victories with near 0 loss making you defense more "permanent". It would be like buying expensive clothes that will last for a long time instead of buying cheap ones every now and then. The problem is... your defeats are still defeats. With intense trading is a viable strategy. However, very difficult.

    On good days I am charming as fuck.

    Hi Alejandro, it has been known for years that ion cannon are useless.


    Your point would make sense if you could choose the ships that are attacking you, but you can't.


    Your purpose with a good defense is to make the attacker lose as much as possible, obviously vs a fleet much bigger than your defense, not similar.


    Sorry for my english btw.

    Very interesting read! Thanks for writing it up and doing the research behind it. :D


    "To do all that one is able to do, is to be a man; to do all that one would like to do, is to be a god." - Napoleon I

    It definitely is an interesting read.


    Can I clarify - when you say don't mix defence... Do you actually mean that.


    Plasmas are often used to deter / delay rippers from raiding... A pure ion based defence feels like a rippers wet dream. (Coming from a ripper not a turtle)

    #FreeArcane

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    Best defence is to have balanced defence.


    And the biggest defence is to not be profitable.


    But as we have seen if someone wants to crack a turtle it can be done very quickly. No defence is IPM proof. And if a big alliance wants to wipe you out it can be done without any profit at all.


    Again my advice is build balanced and never be profitable.

    RL = Fodder
    LL = Fodder with Shields
    HL= IMP absorbents
    Gause = Damage semi spreed out
    Ion= Sheilds!!
    Plasma= Damage! but more concentrated


    ions are beautiful and can mean the difference of a lost and a draw.. i keep my HL and Ions the same.. did my ions mostly while building metal or deut mines, armor tech or same time as RL so i had the crystal..
    but maybe also cause i`m in a single speed uni with Ions that have 1.550 Shield`s per (Shielding 21)..


    *edit* also weapons may only fire per round, structural is useful because once it reaches 0 there goes the ship or defence.. how ever shields come back each round this can help out a lot *edit*


    but make no mistake Prime's right it doesn`t matter what your defence is..if someone wants it gone it`s gonna happen.. defence doesn`t replace fleet saving but it can protect you over night or from a simple spy and fly or might protect your sats..



    your never gonna get everyone to agree on everything.. Examples:
    some miners won't go higher then "x" level of mines because the payback takes to long.. i think everyone should have the idea that they're not going to quit and it's the /per hour that matters more than it repaying itself back
    yea i got w/s/a 21/21/21 in a single speed I've seen people stop around 16 to 18.. my thoughts are points that can't be taken away like ships or defences but will also make what i have better
    I use fusions currently there all at level 19 with lvl 20 energy for me every tho i trade my deut away the loss from the 40k energy i can get outweighs the extra 1,200 breakable sats i would need..also i don't use fusions at 100% i just like higher levels on lower %s
    one person might not like small cargoes cause of their cargo limits an other person might not care they have to send 5x more because of their speed..


    find whats right for you... I've seen people with only RL, LL and Plasma and it seemed to work for them


    Best 15$ spent for no one to understand it when i wear it:

    Edited once, last by hooded ().

    I totally agree with @Optimus Prime
    No defence is safe!

    Quote from -Arcane-

    It definitely is an interesting read.


    Can I clarify - when you say don't mix defence... Do you actually mean that.


    Plasmas are often used to deter / delay rippers from raiding... A pure ion based defence feels like a rippers wet dream. (Coming from a ripper not a turtle)

    Should have been more clear about that. Do not mix with any other fodder defense. Plasmas and Gauss would still be necessary. The main idea of attacking with RIPs is that you dont lose ships. Therefore, they are usually sent without fodder. A simple 36 plasmas per 1 enemy death star ratio would work. In that sense, 100 RIPs vs fodder + 3600 plasmas or 500 RIPS vs fodder + 18000 plasmas and so on. I do not believe anyone would risk a slow deathstar fleet (since it can be ninja by allies very easily). For me I see death stars as defense, and combined with this ION strategy you get A LOT of shield every round. For instance.
    800000 light fighters + 100 deathstars vs 10 deathstars + 100000 Ion cannons = 8 of your RIPs remaining (Actually all of them if your shielding and armor tech is on a 1.3 to 1 ratio with your opponents weapons, 10 weapons vs 13 shield and 13 armor for instance)
    800000 light fighters + 100 deathstars vs 10 deathstars + 670000 light lasers = all of your RIPs destroyed
    800000 light fighters + 100 deathstars vs 10 deathstars + 50000 Ion cannons + 335000 light lasers = all of your RIPs destroyed ( even with the 1.3 to 1 tech ratio, So mixing them is the worst possible scenario)
    That is one hell of a crazy example but I hope you can see my point. Cheers.

    On good days I am charming as fuck.

    Definitely an interesting take on how to use Ions, and now I see them as less pointless than I thought them to be after reading this post.


    But again, the cost of crystal is still too damn high. If the Ion were 4000 Metal and 4000 Crystal(still 8000 units like the Heavy Laser and it wouldn't make a change in the point system), it would be far more balanced, still not as good as the Heavy Laser to cause losses, which is the main objective of defence, to be unprofitable, but at the very least it could be used more if this were the case. At least I would use a few of them every now and then instead of not building at all.


    I care more for that extra 1 or 2 Plasmas that you can get for the price of tens of Ions. Plasmas counter RIPs and one-shot almost all of the remaning ships, which is what you want to focus on.



    Ions however are a steal if the opposing fleet has mainly Cruisers and fodder, since a single Ion can completely nullify a Cruiser's attack and can still damage it even with it's low attack power. But I don't think there's a single fleeter who will use that combo to take down a turtle, he will use Destroyers and Battleships, both of which murk Ions and Ions won't do much damage to them, which is why the Heavy and Ligh Lasers are much more effective, adding up to their cheap and great price ratio.

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