Suggestion of class settings based on current system

  • Hello everyone:


    Since everyone knows that there exists very unbalance setting (especially Discoverer). There are some suggestion made by several players.

    I give some suggestions that GF can only change a bit to make game balance at every stage with each class


    I first list the class info currently (you can skip it if you know it well)


    Collector:

    • +25% mine production (bonus production)
    • +10% energy production (bonus production)
    • +100% speed for Transporters (bonus)
    • +25% cargo bay for Transporters (bonus)
    • +2 offers
    • Lower Market Fees (7% when no admiral)
    • +50% Crawler bonus
    • Build crawlers

    General:

    • +100% speed for combat ships (bonus)
    • +100% speed for Recyclers (bonus)
    • -25% deuterium consumption for all ships (add operator in calculation)
    • -25% deuterium consumption for Recyclers (add operator in calculation, bug? need to check this exists or not, this will cause 0 consumption at 0.5 deut uni)
    • A small chance to immediately destroy a Deathstar once in a battle using a light fighter. (rumor has it 1/1000000 )
    • Wreckage at attack (transport to starting planet) (attacker space dock)
    • +2 combat research levels
    • +2 fleet slots
    • Build reapers

    Discoverer:

    • -25% research time (multiply operator in calculation)
    • x 150% loot on successful expeditions
    • x eco speed loot on successful expeditions
    • +10% larger planets on colonisation
    • Debris fields created on expeditions will be visible in the Galaxy view (other classes need use EP)
    • +2 expeditions
    • +20% phalanx range
    • 75% loot from inactive players
    • Build pathfinders

    Since Mostaris said on Discord that current expedition formulas have some problem in implementation (not implemented as intend), I don't discuss about expedition.



    At ultra early stage (1~3 day of new uni)

    Collector:

    good, especially production bonus before astro 1 and huge deut production bonus as early stage (for astro)

    also, best cargoes


    General: bad, since still no many Recyclers, and attacking needs cargoes (combat ships is fast for sure)

    +2 fleet slots give no significant bonus when you have all officiers


    Discoverer: excellent, faster research time, bigger planet, ridiculous gain from expo after astro 1

    also, expo gives you many high rank ships without technology requirement, also find pathfinders to give 2x loot of expo at this stage




    At early stage (before BS)

    Collector & General not so good, since Discoverer is awesome


    At mid stage (after moon)

    Discoverer becomes much more stronger (loner range of the phalanx, more ship from expo)


    Collector starts to use crawlers, but under the risk of bashing (and no much production)


    General is suck due to lose the advantage of combat even with good combat settings (just few ships compared to Discorverer)


    At late stage (after RIP)

    Discoverer still good with expedition DF (if you are knowledgeable) to have huge income


    Collector sells crawlers to other classes (slight income)


    General (if you change from Discoverer to General at this stage, all General already lose before this stage, just assume all General from Discorverer after this stage)

    slightly better, stronger combat ability


    At very late stage (after astro 25)

    Collector seems better since most player just lazy to control expo every hour, base production is somehow comparable to expo

    Discoverer still good if you are not lazy and can buy many deut from other players

    General is good when you join big combat

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    My suggestions are follow:


    Ship status changes:

    Crawler:

    • price to 8000 metal 8000 crystal 4000 deut
    • each gives 0.08% production bonus (and number from 8x(all mines level) to 2x(all mines level))
    • Shield Strength 100
    • Attack Strength 200


    Collector:

    • +25% mine production (bonus production)
    • +10% energy production (bonus production)
    • +100% speed for Transporters (bonus)
    • +25% cargo bay for Transporters (bonus)
    • +2 offers
    • Lower Market Fees (7% when no admiral)
    • +100% Crawler bonus
    • Build crawlers

    General:

    • +10 Combustion Drive research levels
    • +5 Impulse Drive research levels
    • +3 Hyperspace Drive research levels
    • -25% deuterium consumption for all ships (add operator in calculation)
    • -25% deuterium consumption for Recyclers (add operator in calculation, bug? need to check this exists or not, this will cause 0 consumption at 0.5 deut uni)
    • A small chance to immediately destroy a Deathstar once in a battle using a light fighter. (rumor has it 1/1000000 )
    • Wreckage at attack (transport to starting planet) (attacker space dock)
    • +2 combat research levels
    • +2 fleet slots
    • Build reapers
    • +100% Reaper DF collect percentage (becomes 50%)

    Discoverer:

    • -25% research time (multiply operator in calculation)
    • x 150% loot on successful expeditions
    • x eco speed loot on successful expeditions
    • +10% larger planets on colonisation
    • Debris fields created on expeditions will be visible in the Galaxy view (other classes need use EP)
    • +2 expeditions
    • +20% phalanx range
    • 75% loot from inactive players
    • Build pathfinders


    Now, I think it is much more balance.

    Collector has good defence (also gives good production)

    General has good tech bonus at every stage (still you need at least 1 level to get tech bonus as current setting, fast go fast small carge/cruiser/BS,BC, super recycler). This make General have the ability to hunt Discoverers for profits at early stage.


    Collector => Turtle / passive miner

    General => fleeter

    Discoverer => active miner / fleeter-miner


    Thanks for you reading.

    piink just remind you for no lost my suggestions

  • Gameforge   piink More revenue. Make the classes officers. 240K DM each for year. you do the economics. Also the "discoverer" perks need to be trimmed back. Sad to see fleeters out attacking weak and stupid Ai opponents. Legor is screaming from the top of his moon at 1:1:2


    Best regards, version4

    version4_tag.jpg










    version4


    JeB Jedi Bunny

    Long Live UNI 1
    Long Live UNI 17

  • Well it woudlnt be a tactical or either fun game if all were the same, even tho, 90% of uni atleast those who read boards get discoverer, cause they want mainly to compete abit vs mastercard and visa weavers... Just a little few who register and never see boards or so take collector cause woow it gives us mine production nice... or General - woow it sounds awesome a army general, and those then later after they realise the mistake they done come here on boards and spam how unbalanced classes are and etc... well reasearch > one clickin

    gokui.png

    ... SOlution is Arround the Corner .. Active since 2007 ..

  • Actually, I think the solution is 2 classes. Everyone is a discoverer until they finish the tutorial (or finish Astro 1, something), then they pick the class they want to play, Collector (miner style) or General (fleeter style).

    Just add the discoverer "bonuses" to every player and keep them there. Not everyone will run max expos with max cargos all the time, but they will have the option to if they wish.

    Brute force, if it's not working, you ain't using enough.

  • I think it is not a good idea to give everyone the expedition bonus.


    Some players is busy or have a long time span during the day (e.g. on the work and cannot play ogame every hour), if all players have expedition bonus (and the income is comparable to daily production) that means if you cannot do the expedition, you lose a lot.


    The trade off of Discoverer is that if you don't have time to do expedition every day, the income is not significant. And you also block some fleet slots (decent) , and the most important, if you fight for the expedition DF, you cannot use the huge fleet at anytime (lose the flexibility) and possibly lose a huge fleet sometimes (be weak at a short time).


    Therefore, passive players and full-time fleeters are not so suit to be a Discoverer; currently, all players tend to be a Discoverer just because the ridiculous income in high eco universes.


    So, to handle the income problem, one solution is to nerf Discoverer's expedition formula (and many players don't want this, since it is very happy to have current results, but it seems have implementation bug to have such a big multiplier) and another is to buff other classes to have comparable ability. (Discussed at here classes-extremely-unbalanced/)


    Besides, in my opinion there exists following playstyles in OGame. (mixable)


    Combination with - , the fore is the main style

    • Fleeter:
      • full-time fleeter (search target and hunt players every day)
      • v-mode fleeter (attack and go v-mode or v-mode then attack)
      • fleeter-miner (if there is a good target, attack, if no target, mine)
      • destroyer (just want to destroy other players)
    • Miner:
      • miner-turtle (passive miner with huge defence)
      • gambling miner (besides be a miner, find some interesting including luck except attacking, like do expedition, auctioneer, steal DF, watch marketplace ...)
      • miner-fleeter (be a miner and prepare defensive fleets to against fleeters)
      • ultimate miner (just for high level mines and techs)
    • Supporter:
      • deut supporter (provide deut for pushing or attacking)
      • fleet supporter (provide ship, be a General to provide Reaper is possible, building RIPs for doing MD for fleeters is also possible)
    • Survivor:
      • turtle (try to survive under the hustle universe)
      • achievement collector (survive for some achievement, like RIPs, super huge defence high useless tech ...)


    Hope that all playstyles are playable, not all players go to the gambling style.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by DSobscure: add discussion link fix typo ().

  • If you are losing ground in rank because you can only log in occasionally, then tough shit.

    Im serious, you actually think players who only log in once a day SHOULD be able to compete with someone who runs expos all day?

    Miners and Fleeters, thats OGame.

    Give everyone +2 expo slots, make ALL expos according to the ORIGINAL formula, not the one being used. Split the discoverer bonuses among the 2 other classes.

    I want something to do to increase my production when I am "online" and do NOT tell me I can "hunt for fleets"

    Brute force, if it's not working, you ain't using enough.

  • I think, if we keep 2 classes, that the +2 expo slots are not needed.

    The formula may be what they (GF) want cause it will be balanced for everyone, cause everyone will have the same possibility if decide to run expos.

    And, on top of that, expos will be extra, like they should be, except for the start, where they will still be a "must".

  • Go back to the topic.

    Anyone thinks that if General gets drive tech bonuses instead of current speed is overpowered or still bad?


    And since develop team refactors the old code after 7.0.0.

    If General can have some bonus to shipyard then it is great.


    For example: +100% shipyard efficiency

    It is great to fleeter, the bottleneck usually happens at shipyard before or after a combat.


    And about resource income.

    If General can have shipyard cost discount, it would be awesome.

    Like 10% or 20% off (just keep not allowing infinite resource comes from DF). This lead to General can have more ships (also less loss) or earn resource by selling ship on the marketplace.

  • If the bonuses include 2 extra fleet slots overall, then keep the +2 expo slots for everyone as well.

    All players can build PFs, and see DFs in slot 16.

    Give Generals the extra bonus in Alien/Pirate DFs.

    Then Fleeters can have SOMETHING TO DO when unis dry up and there are 6 targets and you probed them all already 3 times and on and on and on and it nearly made me quit the game.

    I seriously dont want to hear anymore "some players dont have time" arguments, either. Activity should equal faster growth, period.

    Brute force, if it's not working, you ain't using enough.

  • Man and you people just keep getting back at it...

    All that needs to be fixed is the following:

    -Expedition formula for Collector and General to be linked with the eco speed.
    -Classes benefits description.
    -Expedition fights against Aliens and Pirates to have a a limit resource value as it was originally planned (40 million resources). The Debris Field should also be linked with the DF of the Universe. Not some bullcrap 10% for Collector-General and 20% for Discoverer. Make DF of pirates and aliens equal for anyone. The Dark Matter finds are EQUAL across all 3 classes, making fights against Pirates and Aliens to be equal across all 3 classes should not be a problem either, namely when the Discoverer already gets a 50% bonus on all other positive missions (resources/ships) and they can do 2 more expos and they can also see the Debris Field on the galaxy view which is a small but nice to have detail where the other 2 classes will need to probe slot 16 to get the DF. This however will be a huge help for the General class, but since they are the ones that take the most risks, it's only fair.

    The Collector class needs no further changes after these^ fixes are done.

    The General should be tweaked for sure.
    The attacking WF is a very nice bonus.
    +2 combat tech levels (making it +6 overall) is also nice.
    +100% base speed for all combat ships and the recycler minus the Deathstar is also good, it's less noticeable in high speed Universes but the game shouldn't be played with ships that can almost instantly reach a target's planet. This for me is as good as it can get.
    +2 fleet slots is also fine.


    Now for the tweaks on the General.
    -Deuterium consumption being lower is a given, but the values could change, instead of -25% consumption, make is -50%. This may seem ridiculous, but it actually isn't if you look deep into it. Generals depend on other players to get their income, if other players are tight in their playstyle, Generals will never profit. So -25% deut consumption after a ton of atempts is nothing... -50% should be ideal. If Discoverers get +50% bonus on expos and Collectors get +50% on their Crawlers, it's only fair that Generals get this much as well.

    -The Reaper... One of the benefits of the General class is to be able to build the Reaper. However, the Reaper is a pretty niche ship that can be overwhelming on very exceptional scenarios, but most of the time it's a ship that just like the Destroyer, will be stationary on a fleeter's planet/moon collecting dust because most of the fights fleeters take on is against huge amounts of fodder, defences and cargo slaps. And for that, the much widely used Cruisers, Battleships and Battlecruisers are far more effective due to their rapid fire figures, price and speed.
    Bottom line is... The Reaper has to actually be a very versatile ship for fleeters to actually take a nice interest in it, because otherwise, it's just another common ship like any other, which is not supposed to be. So I suggest these changes, one of which is actually LINKED to the General class (bolded):

    -Change it's price from 85.000 Metal + 55.000 Crystal + 20.000 Deuterium to: 90.000 Metal + 50.000 Crystal + 20.000 Deuterium. Making it have the exact same SI and cost the exact same number of resources but being a bit cheaper since metal is much more cheap than crystal.
    -Give it Rapid Fire against Cruisers of 7.
    -Increase it's base speed from 7.000 to 8.000 or 8.500.
    -Make the Reaper get at least 40% of the Debris Field after the fight. 50% also would be great without being overaxegerated since you will still need to have those Reapers be alive to get the DF after all and you still need to send Recys for the rest. This would be a huge benefit for Generals. Generals getting 50/40% while the other 2 classes using the Reaper get 25/20%. Instead of the pitiful 25% Generals are getting right now. This would not only increase the profits of the Generals by a lot using the Reaper but it would also reduce the amount of recyclers they would need to get the entire Debris Field, which will mean, less deuterium consumption overall.


    Combination with - , the fore is the main style

    • Fleeter:
      • full-time fleeter (search target and hunt players every day)
      • v-mode fleeter (attack and go v-mode or v-mode then attack)
      • fleeter-miner (if there is a good target, attack, if no target, mine)
      • destroyer (just want to destroy other players)
    • Miner:
      • miner-turtle (passive miner with huge defence)
      • gambling miner (besides be a miner, find some interesting including luck except attacking, like do expedition, auctioneer, steal DF, watch marketplace ...)
      • miner-fleeter (be a miner and prepare defensive fleets to against fleeters)
      • ultimate miner (just for high level mines and techs)
    • Supporter:
      • deut supporter (provide deut for pushing or attacking)
      • fleet supporter (provide ship, be a General to provide Reaper is possible, building RIPs for doing MD for fleeters is also possible)
    • Survivor:
      • turtle (try to survive under the hustle universe)
      • achievement collector (survive for some achievement, like RIPs, super huge defence high useless tech ...)


    Hope that all playstyles are playable, not all players go to the gambling style.

    Like that you pretty much summed up all of the viable playstyles in this game. Yet some people want to lower the number of classes... lol.

    Just recently we had a number 1 top in org. in a x1 speed Universe by a long-shot and a few other very great hits here in EN at least from what I have seen... But somehow people are saying that this update killed the game. It didn't. The approach should be this one, it just needs the fixes I mentioned above.

    I btw, fit the survivor playstyle.

  • Your fix is buffing expos to everyone. If people want expos buffed go discoverer then. You are suggesting something that is not a "fix", you are suggesting something to force people to do expos to match up other classes.

    Nice (sarcasm) "fix".


    I would have accepted it if you said "nerf discoverer" (and for "nerf" i mean the formula that was intended to be used, cause you misunderstand everytime i say "nerf").

  • Your fix is buffing expos to everyone. If people want expos buffed go discoverer then. You are suggesting something that is not a "fix", you are suggesting something to force people to do expos to match up other classes.

    In the Discoverer you can do mines, you can fleet, you can farms inactives and you can do expeditions...

    Yet in the General and Collector, you can do 3 of those 4 things because their expeditions absolutely suck. And besides, it is an objective fix because the formula is wrong in the first place.

    And what's wrong with people doing expeditions? You seems to be so on about this for... no reason... other than YOU not liking it.

  • Your fix is buffing expos to everyone. If people want expos buffed go discoverer then. You are suggesting something that is not a "fix", you are suggesting something to force people to do expos to match up other classes.

    In the Discoverer you can do mines, you can fleet, you can farms inactives and you can do expeditions...

    Yet in the General and Collector, you can do 3 of those 4 things because their expeditions absolutely suck. And besides, it is an objective fix because the formula is wrong in the first place.

    And what's wrong with people doing expeditions? You seems to be so on about this for... no reason... other than YOU not liking it.

    I have to decide how to play, not the game, GF and/or a class.


    Let we see if now is clear.

    Still you ask youself why people dodge general but don't get what is wrong in the actual ranking system (or meta) that GF created.


    No more words. Bye.


    Ps: