A calm examination of the Class Rebalance patch
-
- All
- DeepMiningInc
-
-
Guys, I have a question to this buff:
Every 10% raise above 100% costs 20% additional energy!
So, can I do it infinite many times? Like, can I rise 10000000% crawler bonus for additional 20000000% energy?
If so, then I've already calculated that by increasing crawler bonus by 10% (which would cost me 10 energy more per each crawler) will be great investment as it will pay for itself in about 1-4 days (depends on planet temp, item boost to energy and eco on planet).
It caps at 150%.
So 150% buff for 200% energy cost. -
Guys, I have a question to this buff:
Every 10% raise above 100% costs 20% additional energy!
So, can I do it infinite many times? Like, can I rise 10000000% crawler bonus for additional 20000000% energy?
If so, then I've already calculated that by increasing crawler bonus by 10% (which would cost me 10 energy more per each crawler) will be great investment as it will pay for itself in about 1-4 days (depends on planet temp, item boost to energy and eco on planet).
It caps at 150%.
So 150% buff for 200% energy cost.Oh, now I see it. I read that patch info like 3 times and somehow missed that
-
I'll go into more depth at somepoint later on the changes, the classes, and well everything else but I thought I'd offer up a quick hot-take.
Hot-take:
The meta has shifted further into the hands of "players with large networks" (see spoiler) with this update. I don't see any viable option for a solo player to be competitive whereas pre-update, as unbalanced/overpowered as the discoverer was, at least it gave solo players half a chance if they played their hand right.
Like I said though, I'll be posting a more nuanced take on things later.
Players with large networks = botsdidn’t read any of the bullshit you wrote other than the bots stuff. Weird how the universes you take care of are full of them and the account you have in xanthus is just as big. You’re part of the problem sir!
-
The two things I wonder the most with the rebalance are:
1. How many "additional crawlers" can Collectors w/ Geologist have?
If there's no cap, then the OP class simply shifts over to Collectors. Though it means fleeters will have lots of targets to go after.
2. Will Collectors and Generals finally have their expeditions factor in the Eco factor of the server?
If collectors/generals still don't get the eco speed factored into expo's, then Discoverer will still likely be more profitable w/o the combats if crawlers do still have a cap.
-
i start to pissof here, 7 mounths back i was General , whit large fleets ,and farmed good in Himalia , but the expolorers started to made more profit whitout chasing timing targets and spending time ..... than i desided to spend money and become explorer myself .... so far so good - but i scrapedd ships to made an expo-pirates fleet and catch up whit the outher guys around .... cool ... spended md to bilf this stuff too , dm for the scraps an so so ....
and now i see its useless ....
Ithout Ogame is strategy game ? right ??? i am good whit strategies .... BUTTT I NEED A CLEN RULES TO MADE MY STRATEGY !!! ALLL iSEE that i spended mutch time and money for nothing.... i what to know what will be finaly and how to game or i just got to dellete thouse good acounts of mine -
Metal bonus, say no more
Any calcs on estimated decades needed for Collector now to close an existing gap to Disco?
-
Nerfing expos now doesn't undo the damage. You can't be trusted. Still glad I deleted my account.
-
idk what are you all talking about like WTF?!?!?
WHY nerf disco when damage is done, now there is no way to catch those who abused it properly on time, BETTER LIMIT EXPO DF/DAMAGE DONE ON ALLIENS/PIRATES, for example, MAXIMUM DEBRIS 20B...
And to those saying it is good nerf, on merge I wish those top10 accounts worldwide show you how they dont even care about this nerf.
Cya
End of the story.
-
Maybe try some maths. -50% chance on fights make it statistically unprofitable to go for Expo DFs.
It is still ~16 fights for me to recover from a BH
board.en.ogame.gameforge.com/wcf/index.php?attachment/7562/
These are my stats for the last ~4 weeks
6 BH x 16 fights = 96 fights to pay for BH
Deut (~4B a week) (x 4 weeks) = 16 fights of res per week
274 fights x (0.5 nerf) = ~137 fights
-112 Fights to pay for BH/Deut
137 fights post nerf
--------------------------
= 25 fights profit (~40 bil for me)
If I had 4 BH? then I am in 57 fights profit (~86B profit)
86B / 1.6B (collector bonuses for me for a month) = 53.5 months of Collector bonuses
Hell even without fights I can make 400M+ from expos in a day
so 1 month of Disco profits will equal 4.5 years of collector bonuses for me
I am not arguing this isnt a big nerf
I am saying if the RNG is in your favor you can still profit enormously over the other classes
Some people like me average 10 BH a month
Some like Lord Payne average 2-3 per month.
Players who are having that better luck can still make out like bandits
This change also doesnt fully address the exponential profits. 25 fights for me? 86B profits
25 fights for my ally mate? 500B profits.
This does however move PVP to be more profitable in relation to expos. 1 good hit will make me 12B profit
140B profit hit is a lot tougher to achieve
This shows me as making about 0.013% ROI per expo with the nerfed fight chances using LF/LC at 2:1 ratio
Meaning it will take ~7700 expos to pay off my expedition fleets (3 months)
This percentage is the same if I double my expos, meaning the bigger fish will keep getting bigger
-
These are my stats for the last ~4 weeks
6 BH x 16 fights = 96 fights to pay for BH
Deut (~4B a week) (x 4 weeks) = 16 fights of res per week
274 fights x (0.5 nerf) = ~137 fights
omg, huge sample size there. you've got it figured out dude.
-
What's your calculations Tirnoch? This is still massively profitable to do expo.
-
50% less pirates/aliens - this makes pirates/aliens completely unprofitable. We have to run some calculations, but if I eyeballed it right, with this change, you are either looking at pulling even or at a consistent loss with pirate/alien fights. This is really good for the game, this is the single change that makes all the impact. Whether pirate/alien farmers like it or not, this is what is actually good for the game. Too bad it is 9 months late. It remains to be seen how this will interact with the merger item; because letting a sick pirate built fleet merge into a virgin uni is an outright trash idea. What needs to be done now is make a very strict border between every universe created by now, and every universe created past this point. This is a great start, but there is still work to be done, GameForge!
Are you serious? There were no Expo DFs pre-MCO. They introduced Expo DFs and advertised the Explorer class with increased Expo results and Expo DFs. And now they are giving the Explorer a perk that makes the DFs completely useless. Why give a class a perk that makes the play style for which it was designed completely worthless? Did you ever play an MMORPG that gave a ranged class a perk that reduced its range? Exactly, me neither. That's exactly how illogical that change is.
So why were Expo DFs introduced in the first place if they are going to make them completely useless now?
That they should/could have solved the problem differently, is a fact. But I would rather take this than nothing. Discoverer still makes the most "passive" income; but now it is very much capped at resource/fleet finds, instead of infinitely expandable. I pretty much agree with what Crvt wrote, and it also aligns with your remarks to "do some math", because you are right. To conclude, while I agree with you, I am just happy SOMETHING has been finally done. And I am hoping and praying to OGame gods for this to be a sign of potential good/better changes in the future.
Disco is still fine early game, and I guess very late game can also be okay.
I'm gonna make a math TLDR on new expos
- Most compositions become unprofitable
- The most profitable compositions(per expedition count, not per time), aka low weapon RIPs and LF-LC in 50% consumption, are still profitable
- The profitability drops like 10-15 times, so variance grows a lot, and it kinda becomes all about luck. Half a year long breakeven or losing periods would not be uncommon. Running 10% worse than average expectation would make you unprofitable.
- Expected payoff for expos is gonna be around one year very roughly speaking, depending on activity and universe parameters of course.
- One year payoff for investment is still good lategame, compared to other options.
- But PvP is much better if you have skills, specially with likely possibility of being able to choose your targets with merge items.
- It still can be worth it to run expos, if your fleet is already big enough to solo/ACS any possible target, and your mines have more than a year amortization. It is still a good investment in this case.
- For most skilled and active players running PvP on general will be the best option. (and how it should be, IMO)
Early game disco still has massive resource and ship finds, I assume. It was high in 7.0 and broken in 7.1, if it stays as in 7.1 then it is still going to be a prime early game class. Considering that it also has tech speed and planet size bonuses, it is still very good; as is the option to steal most expo debris across the uni if you're the first to pathfinders.
Overall, decent nerf as I see it, it puts PvP > PvE > idle mining. Many superior way to do it than making it a variance-fest, but not terrible. It is not like the other solutions do not have their own problems.
I personally would prefer a debris size count or a mechanic that would make it less reliant on luck than it was, but have ROI drop with greater investment. It'd have an obvious loophole in forcing top players to split their fleet in multiple accounts(and maybe run expos in a bunch of different x6 50%'s at once) for max profit, with an option to hand over some account to someone else later and merge them via market / jump to ACS if needed.
That'd be quite a terrible meta, but at least it would affect only the very minority at the top.
Alternatives would be something like fleet upkeep introduction, etc, but I don't really trust GF to nail that without crippling bugs, anyway.
The obvious issue is of course that it is late, and the accounts that got far ahead will now stay ahead much longer.
On that note, I will retire; others seem a bit closer to each other, so perhaps they can have some fun after the merge.
P.S.>
Wonder what the hell is 'building crawlers above the usual limit'. What's the new limit, if there is one? If they nerfed expos to uncap 2-3-day amortization crawlers, that would be hilarious.
P.P.S.>
Fleet speed 5% steps with class speed bonuses is gonna make blind returns in high speed unis such a mess...
You pretty much nail everything here I think. I am happy to have read your entire post.
It takes a lot of time to build an account past the point where doing just LC+1PF expeditions becomes less profitable than using a collector. A good player using a Discoverer will still easily be on top for the first ~2 months of a new universe, but at that point switching to General is a winning strategy if you are skilled and active. Collectors are fine only for completely passive players (be they roleplaying pure miners, or just lazy, or just casually clicking around for a week); sending one wave of expeditions per day still beats it for a very long time...
What about 100+ bot playing as diso and pushing higher rank ?
Well they did somewhat address this in newer unis by removing marketplace. Non-marketplace cheating is much harder to set up and pull off, and incomparably less profitable. I hope the return of marketplace will present the feature in a better way (I doubt they have invested time and money into developing MP only to permanently scrap it...). Older unis are beyond repair, though, sadly.
So one of things that as a collector seems mostly useless is is the bonus res produced by crawlers. Haven’t crunched all the numbers yet but I will later. So basically for double energy you get 50% res from crawlers...which is already low. So based on 14 planets at 920 crawlers is going to cost me an additional 46,000 energy per planet for what’s going to amount to roughly 1.5 million extra res per week across my entire account. That’s absolutely laughable.
Pretty much. Collector needs a better rework to be competitive. Crawlers are just too flawed in their current implementation... High risk, high investment, bad potential for expected growth with the risk/investment.
-
What's your calculations Tirnoch? This is still massively profitable to do expo.
Its sad how * you guys are ...
sometimes you get 6bh in a week, sometimes you dont get a single bh in a whole month, sometimes every 5days you get BH, you can have 10pirates a day, next day maybe just 1? And rebuilding that huge fleet on merge without dm usage? You still find it worth? Maybe there is little space for 5-10b profit, but it is nothing in a month go for it np, i'd rather hunt your fleet
-
what i really sayed here is ,that good strateggy game ones, began to comfuse me ?
is it still strategy game now ?
do i got to made new strategy every few patches ? WTFFF??
and ofcource .... money , money money
you GF guys - finaly close the market -
And I am hoping and praying to OGame gods for this to be a sign of potential good/better changes in the future.
I can assure you it's not, because the changes line up perfectly with their "band aid fix" mentality.
-
just remuve clases and will be perfect.
-
These are my stats for the last ~4 weeks
6 BH x 16 fights = 96 fights to pay for BH
Deut (~4B a week) (x 4 weeks) = 16 fights of res per week
274 fights x (0.5 nerf) = ~137 fights
omg, huge sample size there. you've got it figured out dude.
Well look at the ROI calculator, if the ROI is a positive number you will eventually pay off your expo fleet
Doesnt matter if it takes a week (pre nerf) or a year (post nerf)
Long term the pirate fights will pay off your expo fleet using certain compositions
Since it is exponential, the bigger the expo fleets the bigger the profit
With the merge item and post merges, mid sized players like me will have to be much more careful
I may only send a fraction of the current expos I do now
Big players who dont have to worry about being hit without planning can likely continue sending expos if they wish
They have the luxury of hunting the new post merge fleets and sending expos
I understand my personal stats are a small sample size
I am just pointing out that you can still profit with pirate fightsIm sure you guys have ally mates who have 1/2 your BH, and others with 2x
Some people will continue to profit just fine from doing pirates
And funny enough, I dont see you spending time trying to run numbers
-
These are my stats for the last ~4 weeks
6 BH x 16 fights = 96 fights to pay for BH
Deut (~4B a week) (x 4 weeks) = 16 fights of res per week
274 fights x (0.5 nerf) = ~137 fights
omg, huge sample size there. you've got it figured out dude.
Well look at the ROI calculator, if the ROI is a positive number you will eventually pay off your expo fleet
Doesnt matter if it takes a week (pre nerf) or a year (post nerf)
Long term the pirate fights will pay off your expo fleet using certain compositions
Since it is exponential, the bigger the expo fleets the bigger the profit
With the merge item and post merges, mid sized players like me will have to be much more careful
I may only send a fraction of the current expos I do now
Big players who dont have to worry about being hit without planning can likely continue sending expos if they wish
They have the luxury of hunting the new post merge fleets and sending expos
I understand my personal stats are a small sample size
I am just pointing out that you can still profit with pirate fightsIm sure you guys have ally mates who have 1/2 your BH, and others with 2x
Some people will continue to profit just fine from doing pirates
And funny enough, I dont see you spending time trying to run numbers
Lonely you should go to play tetris instead of ogame. That sample amount is insane..
You forgot that the nerfed to half the Aliens/Pirates encounter but the BH amount is still the same.
Let's talk about reality:
Top 5 players in the world that do RIPS expos, they are fine, they can run smaller and keep profitting. Everyone else is DEAD, they killed expos for every people.
That crawler formula is not bad without limit as 20% extra energy per idk could work. Perhaps the news are not well developed and still not fully understandable, but if it's like Piink said, there is no meta anymore to play. I am sorry but they killed everyone dream to reach a top 1 ww account.
Big people will still be big people.. And one stuff more, before some people where worried big shark eating small fish? that wasn't possible in the past because they were profiting even more with expos, now... beware.
-
Lonely you should go to play tetris instead of ogame. That sample amount is insane..
You forgot that the nerfed to half the Aliens/Pirates encounter but the BH amount is still the same.
I didnt forget, you just didnt read
If you look at the ROI calculator you can see you can set the % chance for Pirates, Aliens, BHThe numbers I gave were based on half the current values
6.88 -> 3.44% Pirates
2.98 -> 1.49% Aliens
Return on Investment per expo (pre nerf -> post nerf)
0.3292% -> 0.0131%
303.7 expos -> 7,633.6 expos for ROI
7633.6/303.2 = ~ 25.13 times more profitable pre nerf vs post nerf
So if we take for example CRVT
If he goes from growing 750B res a day, to 30B (1/25) res a day, expos are still a huge profit compared to other classes
This ROI calculator was developed by french community and they used the data from hundreds of thousands of expos to calculate the percentages
I am showing you with both with specific examples with statistics from large samples that you can still profit from Pirates
Top 5 players in the world that do RIPS expos, they are fine, they can run smaller and keep profitting. Everyone else is DEAD, they killed expos for every people.
This is aside from the part where you can make 400-500M a day just sending LC and 1 PF, 1 reaper/dest/bb
TLDR: If you dont think expos will be profitable, dont run them