A calm examination of the Class Rebalance patch

  • Any change is surely a step in the right direction? It suggests all the moaning is being listened to? That's what everyone wants right?


    Discoverer — I still don't think the Discoverer class is balanced enough looking at these changes but I don't think that matters.. I actually quite like gaining points quickly from acquiring resources though expeditions... I feel like the market place (buying and selling of ships) should be blocked to anyone in the Discoverer class. This is where the problem is.


    Collector — I would like to see some kind of protection for crawlers in the Collector class. Imagine having crawlers and solar sates behind a suitable defence (or a turtle) and some player comes along to destroy them out of boredom. Great! That's going to be fun rebuilding when it will probably take all week. So much fun wasting time xD


    General — I can't comment on this as I've never played under this class. It sounds good to me but that's like saying a turd sandwich tastes nice to someone with no taste buds.

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  • So if we take for example CRVT

    If he goes from growing 750B res a day, to 30B (1/25) res a day, expos are still a huge profit compared to other classes

    Honestly at this point since there is really no point going to play in any older universe, this makes a great point about upcoming universes. If Crvt at 1 050 000 million points is now making 30 000 million a day, we can say that a new account with 1 million points would make about 1 million times less profit, and that is 30 thousand. I am oversimplifying this a little, but this means there is really nobody in their right mind who would bother doing this. This should kill the annoying LF+LC meta and nudge PvP back into the spotlight. Do point out if I am getting this wrong, no shame in being wrong...

  • No you are right, this is definitely a big nerf to pirate fighting

    Part of the issue here is they took so long to do this, people have built up massive fleets

    People who got on the train late, or starting out after the new changes will likely never be competitive with those who started early


    My point about these being exponential profits is even if it takes CRVT 7600 expos for his investment to pay off

    If his investment was 100 Trillion res, his pay off is huge in the long run

    Current Universes: Zibal
    Former Universes: 3, 18, 30, 35, Jupiter, Nekkar, Quantum, Xanthus, Fenrir, Janice.fr, Europa, Kalyke, Norma
    Basic 20%: 1000+
    Advanced 20%: ~300
    Top Tens: 13-1

  • Even with 50% less chance of fighting, a disco's res/ship find with the 75% inactive loot bonus on high eco setting will kick a collector's teeth in and leave it for dead. On my first day of switching to disco, I was able to match one day of my collector's bonus IN ONE WAVE OF EXPOS. On Uriel we can fare without pirates when our max res find is still 100+m metal.

    Also, that bonus metal on slot 8 :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

  • Perhaps for you is a ton, but for people is not.... actually is TRASH, you don't know about RNG a lot, but i found like 25/28 BH +- in 2 month or any like that, my account got killed by BHs with good profits, just imagine if happens nowadays to someone else?


    I think Game developers first need to finish primary school to learn some math and calcs... French community has been working very hard on show proper data about expos, instead of taking it and work FROM IT.


    The profit right now is 0.56% of the fleet you sent, obviously with the only expos that are not dead, rips (which only high ranks can use)

    The profit before was 2.9%


    Profit reduced by 6 at least, but now you don't have chances to recover after a bad RNG run... There is no EV expected in such small profit..


    Can anyone explain to me if this was the outcome, WHY THE HELL YOU DIDN'T DONE IT IN MARCH?


    now damage is done, you can't fix this way, this is not a fix.

  • In one of my earlier posts I pointed out people with good RNG on BH can keep profiting quite well

    They should have probably patched this when people started fighting pirates and complaining about it on the boards ~January


    And the res gains from regular expos is not something to discount

    My mines make 200M a day, and I can make 500M+ a day from expos just from res/ship finds

    Expos are still very profitable ignoring pirate fights entirely


    Also LOL at 30B profit a day being trash. 10 months of expos and people have lost all perspective of the previous 15 years of Ogame

    Current Universes: Zibal
    Former Universes: 3, 18, 30, 35, Jupiter, Nekkar, Quantum, Xanthus, Fenrir, Janice.fr, Europa, Kalyke, Norma
    Basic 20%: 1000+
    Advanced 20%: ~300
    Top Tens: 13-1

  • I'm not saying RNG is a skill that you acquire, or a thing I want in Ogame

    Everyone can expect their (Edit: LF/LC) expo wave to pay off after ~7700 expos, per wave

    So for me something like 25B profit in 3 months time, ~125 days of production in ~90 days


    I just shared some numbers I was running since no one else in this thread was

    Seems everyone else is happy to pick apart the math without supplying any of their own :rofl:

    Current Universes: Zibal
    Former Universes: 3, 18, 30, 35, Jupiter, Nekkar, Quantum, Xanthus, Fenrir, Janice.fr, Europa, Kalyke, Norma
    Basic 20%: 1000+
    Advanced 20%: ~300
    Top Tens: 13-1

    Edited once, last by Lonestar ().

  • That's the whole point, though. If the expected payoff is some 4k expeditions per slot, not everyone will double in 32k expos (aka waves of 8 slots). Not even close.

    The payoff is just the average expected result. A significant distribution of expo running population will be at a loss after those 32k expos. And that's RIP expos, imagine how long those take.


    It doesn't take much, just 5-10% less lucky than average and you're at a loss. Over time such as 6 months of non stop expos pre-nerf, results can vary f.e. from 6 to 12% pirate/aliens, and from 0.1 to 0.4% bh's, etc.

    What do you think it does to those who got unlucky? What do you think it'll do after the nerf?


    Frankly, average "high ranking in their uni" player can't deal with 2 weeks-1 month of significantly bad luck(such as half pirates and/or double black holes) in the current ROI state, before giving up on the game.

    Players that keep up as if nothing happened after 2-3 months of bad luck are very much a minority.


    People tolerating one year long downstreaks...very rarely happens in gambling games like poker, among professionals, where it is their livelihood.

    Ogame kinda makes it easier since your life does not depend on the results and you do not get as much of an emotional hit, but you're also nowhere near as attached to continuing.


    In other words, importance of luck for expos went sky-high.

    The good news is that you can PvP for similar and likely more stable profits, so long as you have targets to use your entire fleet against.

    The bad news is if there are no targets , your optimal way is to participate in a lottery where you expect to double in a year on average, but there's a significant chance you'll shrink instead, and you have 0 control over it. And nah, mines are still not a contender in that situation.


    To clarify: it is not the lower return that is going to make expo running players want to kill themselves, it is the high variance of actual results vs expected results.

    Edited once, last by Crvt ().

  • Hell, I had a run of bad luck and had 16 BHs over 60 days. Which averaged out like 1 BH every 3 days. I actually ended August Negative of where I started on the first. With the new changes I would never have rebuilt my losses. 16BH is rebuilding your EXPO fleet twice over.


    My Uni is dead so no one to farm, Expos actually gave me something to do with my fleet.

  • Lonestar, we really appreciate your contribution and I think that your calculations are correct. Nevertheless your conclusions are wrong. Some people already tried to explain the reasons but you (and many others) still believe that military expeditions are profitable. I will try to explain why they are NOT profitable:


    Yes, the ROI you calculated is positive, and your calculations are probably correct. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you will get profit. You are missing the big point here. If your investment (100 trilion) was invariable, then yes, statistically after many expeditions you would get around 30b profit. The problem here is that your investment is not static, and more importantly, the losses you get in your "unlucky" days have a lot more impact than the profit in your "lucky" days. The thing is that statistically, there will be long periods without black holes, but also sequencies of consecutive black holes. 4 Black holes in a week or 2 black holes in a day is improbable but it can happen and it WILL happen some day or another. So for example if you find 2 consecutive black holes, your fleet from 100 trillion becomes 70 trillion, and also the profit in your next battles will be reduced substancially. With the smaller profits (+lack of pirates) it will take a much longer time to recover your 100 trillion points, so the probability to find another sequence of black holes during the time you recover increases a by a LOT.


    Let me show some maths here: assuming you get 5% of the fleet invested after a battle, you need 20 battles to recover from a black hole. Assuming that the probability to find pirates/aliens is 5% (in reality it is 9,XX/2), means that with the nerf statistically you need 400 expeditions to recover. Notice that statistically, you will find a black hole every 500 expeditions (0,2% chance). This could seem fine, but in reality it is not, because as explained, after 2 black holes, you lost 30% of your fleet. So in this example you would need you need 30% more battles (520 expeditions) to recover. In conclusion, after only finding 2 consecutive black holes (could be more!) your fleet is statistically unrecoverable.

    Edited once, last by Viterbi ().

  • Yes I see that it is Likely not going to be viable running 15T per wave

    But if you are sending 1M/500k or something the loss is pretty minor for larger accounts

    If I have 20M lf losing 1M (or even 5) doesnt affect the size of the remaining waves, so I could still recover in the long run


    I guess another important question is the encounter chance change is listed under the Discoverer class

    Does this affect all classes, or only discoverers?


    I cant remember but do other classes get reduced DF? Or simply cant build PF or see DF in galaxy view?

    Current Universes: Zibal
    Former Universes: 3, 18, 30, 35, Jupiter, Nekkar, Quantum, Xanthus, Fenrir, Janice.fr, Europa, Kalyke, Norma
    Basic 20%: 1000+
    Advanced 20%: ~300
    Top Tens: 13-1

  • Please bro stop replying dumb stuff.. Doesn't worth. You are a 500m point guys that for you the 200m per day from 3500 LC worth more than real expos.


    The fact is that i will start doing much smaller expos, like 10k rips each wave and that profit will be enough to be better than any collector. And the 700k missing Rips i will go hunting big players forcing to vmode...


    Where before i was just gonna wait people get big and then become a target, now everyone is a target for a big fish... That's not what you were afraid of Lonestar in a different post?


    That's it, now i have to kill other players and make them quit... and they will quit BECAUSE they can't recover their fleet with this scheme.


    Top 1 stay 1 forever if he want.

  • U all guys discussing like they care about your opinion


    they don’t care at all that is

    Nerf class it’s solution if u have mp in your uni

    Make 100+ bot and push your self like all uni have mp and support don’t do any thing about it !!


    How u want from small player to stand against big player ? Nerf diso ? That help them ? Big player can send large fleet to find single pirate and that enough for them and that make for them b res


    Nerf diso for all player doesn’t help at all !!

    And fix fuking mp and pushing from it for god !!

  • Yes exactly. Your account is 4 months old and worth 20x my own ~2 year old account

    board.en.ogame.gameforge.com/wcf/index.php?attachment/7566/

    Basically me and all my ally couldnt acs to kill 1/3 your fleet

    You will be able to hunt accounts my size with inpunity, while your own account is in danger from only ... one?

    For all we know the servers cant even handle a hit as large as your account

    board.en.ogame.gameforge.com/wcf/index.php?attachment/7568/


    I am just frustrated that GF implements the nerf in this particular way after 10 months

    Better than nothing, but far too late

    The damage is done and cant be undone with nerfing the pirate fights at this point



    Current Universes: Zibal
    Former Universes: 3, 18, 30, 35, Jupiter, Nekkar, Quantum, Xanthus, Fenrir, Janice.fr, Europa, Kalyke, Norma
    Basic 20%: 1000+
    Advanced 20%: ~300
    Top Tens: 13-1

  • As a Collector I was beginning to like things as they were. While not hugely profitable, the demand for ships in the marketplace at least gave me something to do.


    If the Disco nerf leads to players offloading their fleets then thats killed my game.


    So the new crawler perk/s are going to need quite a bit of Fusion and Energy tech investment on my part. Ah well, while not hugely profitable, it will give me something to do.


    And you lot think you're bored?!


    Edit:-

    I think a better Disco nef would be having the occasional fleet delayed by several weeks rather than hours. Merely to inject a little humour into being unable to VM during that time :)


    A better collector buff on the other hand for me would be more favourable Marketplace conditions. I recently lost over 10K BS's due to them having not sold after merely 3 days. I don't think I've ever lost that much through getting crashed :/

    Edited once, last by L0rdy ().

  • At first I read the update and I was like cool! I will stick around and play....however after reading these posts...... I don't think it is as lucrative, nor worth while as I first thought.

    Originally when I read:

    "- If both Collector class and the Geologist are active, you can use additional Crawlers above the usual limit."


    I assumed it was unlimited....but now after reading above. It appears it is only 150%. With such a poorly written statement. One can guess either way. My grammar is nothing to brag about....But what is it piink . 150% above workload, so .003% (.002% times 50%) without geologist and/or collector OR unlimited crawlers with geo and collector class(so you could build 4000 crawlers for example and double your mine output)?
    If GF wanted game to be healthy they should be feeding the miners. Like it or not, they play a huge influence in the stable growth of the uni. And TBH, unless GF puts unlimited crawlers, the collector class is and will always be a joke. Or maybe a means to in increase there output.....seriously someone thought .02% is appropriate???

    Still think Disco and general are even better classes....Would love that 5% for fsaving.

    Hey, I know letssled attacks you a lot with his rips.......and I want to crash those rips a lot!


    Words to live by:


    Anyway, the bad news is that inviting/trolling me here on this thread or in the ticket system doesn't change your guilt. I suppose the only thing you have left since you're a lying and manipulative cheater is to try and make me dance, so we did the Congo.


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    Silverwind