Class rebalancing

    Yesterday I had another discussion on the official discord regarding the classes and how they should be rebalanced to make each class attractive at various points in the game progression. Again, this was quite a long discussion where I think a lot of good ideas (which I have collected again and present below) were given. Now I want to know what you think.


    Remember, the actual numbers are ideas - read them like a buff or a nerf but do not get hung up on the actual numbers because that is not what is really important. Gameforge will run the calculus on the numbers and decide what is a good starting point or how they believe the numbers should scale. Ultimately, this is their game and they make the final decisions. However, I want to know what should be buffed or added, what should be nerfed or removed, and or what other changes you would make.


    So, without further ado, here the ideas collected from yesterday's discussion:


    Reaper/Pathfinder/Crawlers

    • All ships should be open to all classes
    • The classes should give perks to the ships of that class
    • Pathfinders compete on raids with cargo ships because of increased cargo capacity but are too weak for raiding (cruisers and battleships survive longer)
    • Reaper should only give the DF harvest perk to Generals or should be combined with the Admiral for 50% or 100% cargo capacity harvesting.


    Collector class

    • central balancing point for the other classes - it is the most balanced of the three classes
    • only class with an officer requirement (for 10% extra crawlers)
    • is not balanced for all game stages
    • is not really useful in the beginning of a server and only gains usefulness later in the server
    • there is no incentive to take the class in the early account development


    General class

    • Should allow for sub-second ship creation
    • Each tech level should give 12.5% boost instead of 10%
    • +x speed on combat ships --> Engine techs give 13/27/40 % instead
    • Remove 75% inactive loot from Discoverer and give it to the General class
    • Bombers/Destroyers/Reapers deal +30% damage to defenses
    • Small chance to destroy a RIP is useless
    • lacks early game relevance
    • lacks late game relevance (no targets because uni is dead)
    • early game possible fix: increased moon shot chance
    • early/late game possible fix: increased moon size (make moons harder to pop)
    • early game possible fix: deuterium in DF (maybe at 1/4 of the uni DF%)


    Discoverer class

    • Class is the only option at account creation
    • Expo gain should be nerfed so early game is not as oppressive
    • Expo gain should be logarithmic and scale to the universe age (make expo relevant in the late stages compared to collector mines)
    • Remove 75% inactive loot from Discoverer and give it to the General class
    • move the #1 rank to scale at 150 million instead of 100 million (slows progression) something like: 150million points = 100% of 100mn gains now and scale (values are not accurate for the realities of the game but are provided as an idea):
      • 1billion = 150%
      • 750million = 140%
      • 500million = 130%
      • 300million = 120%
      • 100million 80%
      • 75million 70%
      • 50million 60%
      • 10mill 20% or less
    • The ability of a discoverer to find 12% of the points of the #1 rank (at <100.000 points) is ridiculous
    • Give 10% bonus to faster research with Technocrat active


    Warrior class

    • Espionage needs better adjustment - like "do not probe this alliance" (make alliances matter)
    • +1 ACS slot
    • Add the ability to link alliance phalanxes - I can use an ally's phalanx in G9 even if I do not have a moon in G9
    • Add the ability to pull up any alliance member's espionage report of a planet/moon (like the old GalaxyTool) without having to share them (a permanent record is kept of the most recent espionages for lookup)
    • +1 drives and/or +1 techs
    • 2% deuterium reduction for all fleet activities


    Trader class

    • Remove 5% resource production and add +2 or +3 levels of plasma tech
    • Give cargo ships additional storage capacity (2.5%? 5%?)
    • Reduce deuterium consumption for peaceful fleets (within alliance?)
    • +10% energy boost
    • +5% cargo capacity boost


    Researcher class

    • Bigger planets are useless since getting a 240+ slot planet is pretty easy
    • +2.5%? +5%? faster research
    • +1 Expo slot
    • Allow customizable expo fleets without the need for an officer1 for resource based expos and 1 for combat based expos
    • 5% reduction to building build times



    I welcome any thoughts or ideas to this discussion.



    Proposed alterations:


    Collector

    • Add: 25% increase to non-facility build times
    • Add: Allow crawlers and satellites be able to be found in the wreck field
    • Alter: Give the 75% loot chance to collectors instead of Generals
    • Add: Reduce crawler energy needs (benefits early game)

    General

    • Add: 25% increase to building facilities
    • Add: Give generals one extra planet to act as a mobile

    Discoverer

    • Add: 100% increase to colony ship speeds
    • Add: +2 Espionage levels
    • Alter: Give Discoverer the real battle chance
    • Alter: Get rid of the eco bonus with discoverer

    Trader

    • Remove: 10% additional storage on moons is useless

    Yeah, I tried starting a similar discussion a month ago or so:

    Cleaning up mess after MCU nerfs



    But I guess the time is now and we can discuss.

    Well, I wrote my opinion in that thread, so you might wanna look up what I said and add it to your proposed alterations section.


    Here's some of the feedback aswell:

    Few thoughts about alliance classes


    Good job kewlness!

    Goodbye old friend.

    It has been a good run (2005ish - 2020).

    Right, I'm just going to copy everything and put my thoughts (if any) next to it in italics, as I think that'll be easier.


    Reaper/Pathfinder/Crawlers

    • All ships should be open to all classes: Absolutely agree here.
    • The classes should give perks to the ships of that class: In conjunction with the previous point, this is exactly how it should've been. Crawlers already work this way (0.02% > 0.03% bonus production as a Collector). I'd personally suggest lowering the capacity of the Pathfinder and Reaper to 7.000 from 10.000, then provide that as a benefit to those ships for using the corresponding class (i.e., if you are a Discoverer, your Pathfinders have +50% extra capacity, and the same for Generals and Reapers).
    • Pathfinders compete on raids with cargo ships because of increased cargo capacity but are too weak for raiding (cruisers and battleships survive longer)
    • Reaper should only give the DF harvest perk to Generals or should be combined with the Admiral for 50% or 100% cargo capacity harvesting. I'd rather the Reaper have just have a bigger recycling capacity when used by a General. This way each of the three unique ships would have advantages to using them with the corresponding class; Crawlers provide an additional boost + can be overcharged, Reapers have more capacity and can mine a larger portion of a debris field, Pathfinders have more capacity and Discoverers can naturally locate expo debris fields.


    Collector class

    • central balancing point for the other classes - it is the most balanced of the three classes: I agree
    • only class with an officer requirement (for 10% extra crawlers): not particularly sure I like this, which is also why I'm not a fan of the Reaper-Admiral harvest connection.
    • is not balanced for all game stages
    • is not really useful in the beginning of a server and only gains usefulness later in the server
    • there is no incentive to take the class in the early account development
    • The following is just some ideas, and goes for the two previous points as well; perhaps the Collector should be able to build non-facility buildings 25% quicker, to mimic the Discoverer's research speed boost. Likewise, a 25% speed boost to Defenses, Crawlers, Sats, and Cargos. Allow Crawlers and Sats to be rebuilt (either by chance like defenses or in the Space Dock). Allow expeditions to be affected by the economy multiplier but at a reduced level (i.e., a 4x server would provide 2x findings)


    General class

    • Should allow for sub-second ship creation: If this is possible, would be good.
    • Each tech level should give 12.5% boost instead of 10%: Definitely agree
    • +x speed on combat ships --> Engine techs give 13/27/40 % instead: Definitely agree, though I think the Combustion would need a bigger boost to keep in line
    • Remove 75% inactive loot from Discoverer and give it to the General class: Agree
    • Bombers/Destroyers/Reapers deal +30% damage to defenses: Don't like this idea
    • Small chance to destroy a RIP is useless
    • lacks early game relevance
    • lacks late game relevance (no targets because uni is dead)
    • early game possible fix: increased moon shot chance
    • early/late game possible fix: increased moon size (make moons harder to pop)
    • early game possible fix: deuterium in DF (maybe at 1/4 of the uni DF%)
    • Allow them to build facilities 25% quicker, as well as combat ships and recyclers. As mentioned, give Reapers the ability to mine a larger portion of a debris field. Allow expeditions to be affected by the economy multiplier but at a reduced level (i.e., a 4x server would provide 2x findings)


    Discoverer class

    • Class is the only option at account creation
    • Expo gain should be nerfed so early game is not as oppressive
    • Expo gain should be logarithmic and scale to the universe age (make expo relevant in the late stages compared to collector mines)
    • Remove 75% inactive loot from Discoverer and give it to the General class
    • move the #1 rank to scale at 150 million instead of 100 million (slows progression) something like: 150million points = 100% of 100mn gains now and scale (values are not accurate for the realities of the game but are provided as an idea):
      • 1billion = 150%
      • 750million = 140%
      • 500million = 130%
      • 300million = 120%
      • 100million 80%
      • 75million 70%
      • 50million 60%
      • 10mill 20% or less
    • The ability of a discoverer to find 12% of the points of the #1 rank (at <100.000 points) is ridiculous
    • Give 10% bonus to faster research with Technocrat active
    • Make Colony Ships 100% faster. + 2 Espionage Tech levels.


    Warrior class

    • Espionage needs better adjustment - like "do not probe this alliance" (make alliances matter)
    • +1 ACS slot
    • Add the ability to link alliance phalanxes - I can use an ally's phalanx in G9 even if I do not have a moon in G9
    • Add the ability to pull up any alliance member's espionage report of a planet/moon (like the old GalaxyTool) without having to share them (a permanent record is kept of the most recent espionages for lookup)
    • +1 drives and/or +1 techs
    • 2% deuterium reduction for all fleet activities


    Trader class

    • Remove 5% resource production and add +2 or +3 levels of plasma tech: Rather leave as is
    • Give cargo ships additional storage capacity (2.5%? 5%?)
    • Reduce deuterium consumption for peaceful fleets (within alliance?)
    • +10% energy boost
    • +5% cargo capacity boost


    Researcher class

    • Bigger planets are useless since getting a 240+ slot planet is pretty easy
    • +2.5%? +5%? faster research
    • +1 Expo slot
    • Allow customizable expo fleets without the need for an officer1 for resource based expos and 1 for combat based expos
    • 5% reduction to building build times

    Well, I'd like to say something about General

    The point is General can't get extra profit from the activity

    Miner and discoverer can get extra reward from their activity, they get extra resource

    But when you attack a fs player, which with lots of defence, general still cant make profit

    The solution is give general some profit point(Like more DF% when they attack, reduce the cost of attack)

    Or make them get profit from the Defense, usually player build more and more defense, they sure you cant make profit, then you never can attack them

    So more DF% and like 10%-20% Defense goes to DF would be a reward for the agreesive player when they choose general

    Thanks for reading this

    ive said it then and i`ll say it again


    give disco back the real battle chance

    limit the DF of expo battles to the #1 of the universe

    (make it 1% or 10%, doesnt matter as long as its "fixed")


    yes, bring back the marketplace

    allow only those 3 special ships with a fixed price

    and let it juggle with 3-2-1 ratio


    give collectors the 75% inactivity loot, not generals

    it`d also "nerf" disco in a small way


    give generals one extra planet, to serve as a mobile planet

    most of the top tier generals have at least one mobile

    but this would mean more activity aswell


    as for alliance classes..im up for all of what you wrote

    AvOZINI.png

    Vreme će proći pa moći će svi da vide

    Kako stojimo ponosni, večni ko piramide

    Agree with most changes but don't really have an educated opinion so wont say much. My two cents as a mainly collector player is removing the need to have geologist on all times and just give the 150% crawler bonus as normal bonus. Also, collector is useless in early game because crawlers cannot be protected and they cost insane energy which is mostly supported by satellites which can also be destroyed. I propose the crawlers to at least not cost energy so Collectors can have at least to only rebuild crawlers if attacked and not worry about satelites making the debris extra juicy. Just my 2 cents from only the collector perspective:thumbsup:

    I do not see GF untying collectors from geologist and I actually see them adding perks to admiral, commander, or technocrat for both disco and general classes. Let's not kid ourselves, GF wants to make money and they know some collectors are going to buy geologist for the perk. It should actually be a surprise the other classes are not built the same way.


    Now that I've got that out of the way, let me also say, if you are going to buff the other classes collector will once again be left behind until even later stages. I would propose alternatively for the collector class that they can run crawlers on a limited energy basis compared to other classes. Whether this just mean they can run crawlers at 150% for the same energy as another class can run them at 100% or if you decrease the base collector energy requirement down to 25 compared to the standard 50. Unless you have played the collector class you have no idea how hard it really is to run crawlers safely at 150% considering that they and the sats required are an immovable target.


    Heck, for collectors it would be nice if you just made crawlers invincible because then the sats are alright, but I doubt that would happen.

    Quote from MIKE20

    I do not see GF untying collectors from geologist and I actually see them adding perks to admiral, commander, or technocrat for both disco and general classes. Let's not kid ourselves, GF wants to make money and they know some collectors are going to buy geologist for the perk. It should actually be a surprise the other classes are not built the same way.


    Now that I've got that out of the way, let me also say, if you are going to buff the other classes collector will once again be left behind until even later stages. I would propose alternatively for the collector class that they can run crawlers on a limited energy basis compared to other classes. Whether this just mean they can run crawlers at 150% for the same energy as another class can run them at 100% or if you decrease the base collector energy requirement down to 25 compared to the standard 50. Unless you have played the collector class you have no idea how hard it really is to run crawlers safely at 150% considering that they and the sats required are an immovable target.


    Heck, for collectors it would be nice if you just made crawlers invincible because then the sats are alright, but I doubt that would happen.

    Ive played Collector and general and disco. Protecting crawlers is easy, just run fusion + energy tech.

    Moderator of: Help & Questions, Universe 1 - Uriel; Quasar - Umbra

    SMOD:

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    lol. I've seen this answer before. Not sure how much eco speed plays into things for your uni, but it is not as simple as you say unless your uni's eco speed makes it easier.


    Also, keep in mind, I'm talking about getting crawlers to 150% not 100% which as you stated is relatively simple. 150% doubles the energy cost of each crawler making it 100 per crawler, not the standard 50 and unless uni eco speed benefits your fusions and energy tech then it is super difficult. I've talked with some of the top ranked miners in Dorado who cannot run 150% because of the insane energy requirements. Most are running 120/130% at best.


    Unless you invest a ton into just fusion and energy tech for a uni like Dorado there is no way to run just fusions and energy tech and have 150% crawler production. If you think you can I'm open to suggestions, but in Dorado you would earn more production by just building your mines a few levels compared to the resource cost outlay involved in getting fusion and energy tech high enough to provide the necessary extra energy.

    Lets not forget here that 1x eco is the exception and nowhere near the law anymore.


    Of course things will be different in 1x eco, but thats the life ya'll chose, and that includes likely having to work differently to get optimal setup.

    Additionally because 1x eco is no longer the rule things are no longer balanced around it and theres no change that can be made to the class to make your life better that doesn't massively effect the higher speed unis or create a confusing "differs by eco speed" situation


    also im talking about 150% crawlers aswell


    I had 45/38/40 mines and the extra 10% crawlers all set to 150%. I covered them by using fusion 23's with energy 23. So presumeablly you could do the same scaled down to your universes mine level.

    Moderator of: Help & Questions, Universe 1 - Uriel; Quasar - Umbra

    SMOD:

    If you have any concerns with my modding feel free to message them

    That's fair. Like I said, I'm in Dorado and did not know how the uni speed would affect things because I am not actively playing any other uni. I would also say that it cannot be that hard to program the classes to change based on uni settings. It is clearly already done with everything else or else the crawlers would not have been easy. In Dorado to get 150% you are better off building mine levels until super late in the game. I do not think anyone has your mine levels that is actively in the uni and even if we did, the production would not be the same.

    Actually, I gave it more thought and it would be pretty complex but not impossible to program it fairly for each uni. I just do not trust GF to get that right so in the end I agree that I guess they are just best left alone.

    if the general class receives more powerful firepower against defense, then the collector class should also receive boost on defense, for example less rapidfire, more armor and attack

    Quote from Cavabien

    if the general class receives more powerful firepower against defense, then the collector class should also receive boost on defense, for example less rapidfire, more armor and attack

    except that defenses dont need to be stronger period. You already need an absurd power gap to get through a defense, and more often then not on anything but the sloppiest turtles that means a loss. Additionally if you did this, then general would need yet another new perk in order to remain in balance.

    Moderator of: Help & Questions, Universe 1 - Uriel; Quasar - Umbra

    SMOD:

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    Quote from 2 Pounds

    Looks like your wanting General to be the new Disco and Disco to be obsolete?

    let's say you gave all classes eco on expeditions, revamped the scaling of expeditions then how would discover be obsolete?

    50% more findings on expos (so if you can find 10m on expos, discover can find 15m)

    larger planets

    wider range on phalanx

    cheaper astro 23+ insta finisher

    less pirates/aliens

    20% df on any pirate/alien finds instead of 10%


    still sounds like a great deal to me for a passive income

    I'm NOT agree with most of the changes but:

    Quote from kewlness

    Discoverer

    Alter: Give Discoverer the real battle chance

    I hope that after all the complains for 7.0.0 this is just a joke, i don't even have words to comment on that lol


    About Collector:
    Remove the cap of 50% production for crawlers: after 1.112 crawlers built boosted at 150% every more crawler is sucking energy without increasing the % of production

    there is the cap for crawlers ? I didn't know about that ...

    yes. they can increase production up to 50%, 1.112 crawlers at 150% gives you 50,04% of increase so every crawler above that won't add you any benefit actually.


    and that's what i would like to remove