20 seconds rule - clarification

  • Hello board ppl,

    happy holidays!


    Im coming here to post, as my last resort to get some answers

    Ive tried tickets, board, discord, but i just cant seem to get answers to my very simple question

    And as you can guess its regarding this post/rule change

    Bug using rule clarification update


    As it says there :

    Quote

    Using any method to generate lag for a player in order to prevent them from sending, recalling, or slowing their fleet is not permitted. One example of this is any mission not capable of destroying the fleet which reaches the planet or moon under attack within the last 20 seconds of the attack. In this case, it does not matter who sent the fleet.


    So..since we cannot speak about bans here, i wont be speaking about one.

    I`ll be speaking about a possible situation, that just have happened to me.


    Lets say players A and B are hunting player C.

    Now, players A and B realise that player C is more than a mere ogamer.

    He was simply something more.

    So players A and B move in, with the magic button named "Relocate".

    After 4-5 months of eating popcorn and watching, they decide to MD.

    Ofcourse, the fleet is set on deployoment, so the watching begins.


    The issue comes when its time to do the return hit.

    Players A and B lock the hit, and let it fly without a single care in the world.

    And this is where it becomes tricky.

    Player X joins the party.

    Player X was originally holding spots locked, along with the players A and B

    because a lot of faces wanted to join in.


    One of those is player L, who tried to take part of debris, but failed.

    We`ll need him for later.


    So, player X decides to probe player C.

    8 seconds before impact.

    Do note that players A and B had no clue about this.

    This supposedly creates a lag and player C cannot move fleet.

    Thus getting crashed.

    While we`re at this, lets all ignore the issue with timed fleets.

    Few secs earlier or before doesnt matter,

    as long as it gets fixed by a rule.


    So my question is,

    what is the decission making process of why players A and B should or should not be banned?

    What is the deciding factor?

    If player X probes, players A and B get banned.

    What happens if player L probes?

    What happens if the probes come from one of those superhuman expo accounts?


    IF players A and B get banned along the player X,

    player C will get full fleet restored.

    While keeping the whole wreck field, giving him a bigger fleet than he actually lost.

    We can see this in my case, which im not talking about here.


    Do players A and B return the profits?

    Because after 14 days of ban, and a few more, they have no available information about this!

    Do they get reimbursed for the losses, both of resources and DM?

    Or do they get banned again for not returning ress,

    while noone told em to?


    So, can we for both my sake [so i dont end permabanned for bugusing after 10 years of playing by the rules],

    and for the rest of the so curious community

    get some much needed answers to this charming topic

    ?



    Also,

    would you mind looking at this [ticket ID - 18708153] piink ?

    Im not sure if it was you who said this is a legit ban, since it was around holidays.

    Prongs was around.


    Danimanza can I ask you that after you ban online people stay on tickets for at least 10 minutes?

    So that people can get faster support?

    Because one answer after days of waiting [only to tell me what i see in lobby] is ridiculous.

    The cherry on top is that i had no answer for the rest 11 days of the ban,

    while you were here [in uni i play in] handling bans and answering other tickets.


    Also,

    may I ask what is the point of Official O-Game Discord channel,

    if none of you ever reply there when people ask for help?



    Happy New Year .org!


    'Stalno u kafani..ja sam nesto poput sanka'



    'Zaboravljamo heroje i junake,pamtimo samo loše likove'

  • You had accounts probing to ensure the guy couldn’t lift his fleet


    get over it. Stop making out you didn’t create lag. It’s embarrassing


    we all know you have more than 1 account and using these accounts to create the lag


    suck it up and consider yourself lucky it’s not perma ban


    that should be the response to you from the staff

  • first is almost impossible for them to know if you guys were avered or not of the prob so l can understand that, but to get banned and all this drama is just ridiculous when we all know the bigger problems there are then few sec probs:headbanging::headbanging::headbanging:


    I can completely understand your frustration with the speed of tickets and the way how they do things. I was trying to transfer my acc from the graveyard to uni 1, the whole procedure took over 3 weeks. Finely when they transfer my acc to uni, they transfer it without Vmode:youcrazy::youcrazy: :youcrazy: so my acc was sitting there without any protection, was just pure luck me logging in later and seeing that ACC is fine, but l wonder what will happen if somebody destroyed me? Who're faults will be that???

  • Quote

    One example of this is any mission not capable of destroying the fleet which reaches the planet or moon under attack within the last 20 seconds of the attack.

    Sorry to jump in off topic - does that example suggest I can’t even probe my target a single time in the last 20 seconds? Or does it mean like, say, 15 times where the purpose is to create a disadvantage?

    Returning to the game after being gone for several years.


    Everything is new, so the count must start again.

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  • It is a concerning problem. And Asto, you would bring a better scenario to consider if you could avoid bringing it back around to you and that specific case.


    There are several issues I see where GF is, if not at fault, certainly need to clarify.

    1) Can a single probe event cause lag for the defender? *(and specifically, enough lag to make any kind of difference?)

    2) Would an innocent, non-participant, who, not even aware of the attack, get a ban if they were just out for a look around the galaxy and their probe happened to land within the 20 second rule?

    3) Would any reasonable person consider a SINGLE probe check from ONE of the participants in either the attack or the harvesting of intended wreck field as an attempt to buguse?


    I will readily acknowledge that it can be said that "the rule is the rule". And that if any cadre of players setting up a hit this long in advance has not made clear to each other what is going on and when, and continuing that communication in game or Discord or other means, then that is a huge lack of discipline and/or communication.


    I think we all know the difference between using a ton of probe events (or even a huge number of probes in one event) to cause lag, and a single normal sized probe fleet to satisfy fleeter curiosity.

    I propose GF needs to refine their rule and their means of assessment of compliance to the rule.

  • Uberman

    Is espionage report causing problem with sending fleet mission or COMBAT report created from probe destroy ?

    I thought it was a Combat report created from destroying probes which disables defender from sending fleet mission ?!

    If Combat report from destroyed probes is causing problem with sending fleet maybe solution is to simply not generate Combat reports when only probes are spying. It can be written in espionage report in text : Probes were destroyed ! that is it.


    Also that should be done only when probes and only probes are spying, no extra ships, cause probe attack is one of the possible solutions against bot users.

  • just to answer with a few non-case-specific answers.


    Yes, one probe can lag the server by 90-100 seconds if done correctly. So yes, 1 probe could be considered bugusing easily.


    I wont talk about this case in particular, Asto has had my thoughts privately and I personally don't agree with bringing it public like this as its very loaded by nature, however... no response from that GA makes it difficult to get absolute clarity for himself.


    Asto is a big dirty cheater though, so you know...

    Arcane
    Quit due to shocking support from piink

    #MostLikedBoardIdiot



  • I tried this "technique" on purpose while attempting to crash a bot and disrupt its fleetsave. Extremely, with a probe attack (to guarantee combat) landing every second. It didn't work at all.

  • What are these bots I keep reading about? How do I recognize one?

    Returning to the game after being gone for several years.


    Everything is new, so the count must start again.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    HoF: 12

    Advanced HoF: 3

    RIP Kills: 10

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    Historical Ranking:

    Electra Top 150; Vega Top 200; Supernova Top 200; Belinda Top 100


    Ancient IGNs:

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    superninjaboi

  • Yes, one probe can lag the server by 90-100 seconds if done correctly. So yes, 1 probe could be considered bugusing easily.

    This would be the only game of it's kind to do so ...that means something is badly wrong with the game :)


    What are these bots I keep reading about? How do I recognize one?

    You can't recognize them ,dude, they don't exist :biggrin: j/k ofc

    Seriously, now, Asto Vidatu, I hope You will manage to sort out this dumb situation, after 52 tickets sent :)

    Can the GA clarify on how many seconds U2 locked player's C fleet in a deploy return :?:

    MISSY

  • If it took this to realise the servers are fucked what rock have you been living under.


    One would have hoped that gameforge might have leveraged more server utilisation (or better servers) now they are ditching communities left and right with these mergers.


    But no... We get a rule that is:

    A) only enforced when gameforge say it should be enforced (see people probing in the last 20 seconds but not being banned because they didn't make the lag this time)

    B) so potentially complicated that even Stephen Hawking can't write a book about it

    C) caused this fuckery of a thread.


    Also, everyone in vega knows how far asto was behind the fleet.

    I think it's fair to say the person doing the probing was active within the scope of the hit, but not in the ACS.


    Person L in that post (fuck sake asto that was a shit to read who centre aligns shit...this isn't a My Little Pony blog) was clearly not involved offensively and in no realm able to cause lag.


    Disclaimer: I'm not saying the rules are clear, like trying to stare through a bukkake

    Arcane
    Quit due to shocking support from piink

    #MostLikedBoardIdiot



  • Most of the time You have pretty much nice humor sense Arcane <3, just don't get too nervous about f@cked servers , You can always change the game, to try the other rocks where rules are much more clear , where You can't see bugs even under microscope :)

    Things sorted out Asto :?:If so You can keep fleeting :):?:

    MISSY

  • so safety probing a target before you hit is bug using, unless your safety probe falls outside the 20 second window then ?

    Thats how i am reading this! or is it no safety probing if you think your combat is going to cause GF server to fek out ?

    Top 10's - 8
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  • From what I understand - do it. Safety probing is a good practice in my opinion. But if you get reported for it, you may or may not be violating the rules.


    Whether a lag is caused doesn't really matter, because rules say no. Also, I'm not technically legible enough to understand how easy it is to find out whether the probe caused a lag (happy to hear answers from more technical people)

    Returning to the game after being gone for several years.


    Everything is new, so the count must start again.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    HoF: 12

    Advanced HoF: 3

    RIP Kills: 10

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Historical Ranking:

    Electra Top 150; Vega Top 200; Supernova Top 200; Belinda Top 100


    Ancient IGNs:

    DisIsDaPlayer328

    Moonshine328

    superninjaboi

  • "safety" probing 20 seconds or 6 seconds or any second is pointless, useless, stupid. It will never save you from a proper ninja. You are more safe doing nothing and recalling if you see activity.


    Slowing down the fleet is the only proper way to play, but everyone is sometimes guilty of being too lazy to do it, including myself.


    In this specific case with whole fleet caught in return and with any ACS Defend movements visible on phalanx the ONLY purpose of probing can be bugusing. Even if defender insta builds 50k RIPs, which is the only surprise that can happen, you can see it on stats. So yes, whether organized by attackers or done "accidently" by some random player at exactly the right time, the purpose why it was done is clear. If there was enough time to escape (like 5 seconds) damage was done to defender. If there was no time to escape (like 2 seconds) it makes no difference so there should not be any bans. I believe admins will make a just decision.

  • That's was a wall of text.


    Dave Derpson click the link in astos opening post. Says clearly no fleet activity within 20 seconds as a rule

    the rule is unclear as


    A) not all activity undertaken with last 20 seconds has been bannable.


    B) are there limits to who consistutes as being involved. If asto timed me back, and I had my alliance mate probe me 6 seconds before... Is that bannable?

    Arcane
    Quit due to shocking support from piink

    #MostLikedBoardIdiot



  • "safety" probing 20 seconds or 6 seconds or any second is pointless, useless, stupid. It will never save you from a proper ninja. You are more safe doing nothing and recalling if you see activity.


    Slowing down the fleet is the only proper way to play, but everyone is sometimes guilty of being too lazy to do it, including myself.

    Not everyone is able to execute a timely, proper, ninja...some people arrive way too early to the party (and sometimes, they don't know when to leave either).


    But yeah, slowing down is optimal provided you're in an ACS uni.