"usual" taboo argument

    probably topic will be closed, and i warned...i have to try anyway. i won't give names here, but i think all who is playing this game for 10+ years as i did, knows what i'm talking about. So...

    When will GO & SGO start to ban for real all this pushers, even if they are shoppers?! :beware:

    There are pretty clear examples that never was banned, even for 1 single day..farms near main accounts,

    Shouldn't be more competitive for honest players, keep game clean without all this not playing accounts, and for GF let them spend more if want to be first?

    Regards

    Mod warning:

    Moved to the correct forum.

    I will leave this thread open so long as the discussion is civil and on topic.

    Get too far off the topic and I will close it.


    However, I will warn people now:
    Board rules are to be followed (in the event of a question, the ORG board rules will be the deciding factor).

    No insults.

    No finger pointing.

    No bashing staff or Gameforge.

    You are allowed to post in your native language but it must have a translation to English.


    GO side:
    Dark Matter is not going to be removed.

    This question/complaint has been acknowledged and rejected time and again.

    This is a tired old complaint and really needs to just be accepted as the way it is and always shall be.

    Pushing is a rule violation and if you are seeing illegal activity, report it.

    Not all activity is illegal so you might need to curb some incorrect assumptions as well.

    However, I cannot speak for all communities so others might want to chime into the conversation.

    If you have buddies who are not playing anymore you can have them move all their planets in your system, go inactive and be your farm. This is completely legit, because anyone can attack inactives, even though you would have clear advantage over others.


    But if your buddies are active and they let you farm them, that is pushing, but extremely hard to prove if it's disguised as real hit.


    I don't think there are many cases like this with real players involved. Expo bot farming is a much bigger problem.

    Quote from Kelenken

    If you have buddies who are not playing anymore you can have them move all their planets in your system, go inactive and be your farm. This is completely legit, because anyone can attack inactives, even though you would have clear advantage over others.


    But if your buddies are active and they let you farm them, that is pushing, but extremely hard to prove if it's disguised as real hit.


    I don't think there are many cases like this with real players involved. Expo bot farming is a much bigger problem.

    For some reason, I thought there was some kind of rule put into play about blocking systems at one point with accounts that go (i) but I don't it see it now...would have sworn it was there at one point or at least something along those lines. I seem to remember it being an issue in uni 1 that generated a bunch of hoopla over it.


    But yeah, right now, as it is...perfectly legit. You can even ACS defend them if you had the forethought to add them to your BL and ninja would-be farmers.

    Quote from kewlness

    GO side:

    This question/complaint has been acknowledged and rejected time and again.

    This is a tired old complaint and really needs to just be accepted as the way it is and always shall be.

    I'm not dragging you into discussion. I'm just making general statement.


    We should constantly bring this complaint /question just like John Wick and other respectable players.

    How else do we encourage or engage in discussion with the rest of community. Goal is to bring every player to this board and have them participate or at least follow discussion.


    If majority of player base comment negatively about some issue, GF may be inclined to do something.

    It's a shame that there aren't many leaders of big alliances voicing their concerns, thus bringing other people behind or against any kind of idea, suggestion, complaint, question.


    Even if there are negative tensions between players, which results in closed threads. We need to recycle same discussions to bring people closer, engage them.



    TLDR : Players need to voice their concerns often



    Quote from kewlness

    Not all activity is illegal so you might need to curb some incorrect assumptions as well.

    Thank you, this message needs to be spread around.

    Ok i have to sorry for my english "in try" as first.


    Dark matter is GF income, i'm melancholic about times where DM didn't exist, but i understand that we can't complain about that.


    Once strongest players was controlled more of "normal" players, why this good habit isn't continued?

    Ok let them spend, no problem for me there. But why leave them to push themselves in so obvious ways.


    @Keleken it's ok farming dead accounts, I don't for know how much time you are playing but there are players that use different accounts, moving things and farming them, it seems legal cos IP are not same.


    Many old players leaved 10+ years ago when scripts and bots started.

    I sent 1 ticket something like 14 years ago with screenshots of obvious bot using, i was asked how do I know about bots?!

    Not telling all GO/SGO are same, many things changed in almost 20 years, we changed too, why there can't be little more controll about that i'm sure you got instruments.

    Quote from Kelenken

    If you have buddies who are not playing anymore you can have them move all their planets in your system, go inactive and be your farm. This is completely legit, because anyone can attack inactives, even though you would have clear advantage over others.


    But if your buddies are active and they let you farm them, that is pushing, but extremely hard to prove if it's disguised as real hit.


    I don't think there are many cases like this with real players involved. Expo bot farming is a much bigger problem.

    I reported one guy for obvious multiple push with all evidence and they didnt ban him. He recycled his alliance mate and then later wreckage from it, gave him a push of 25% his total points and GOs did nothing about that. In the end players must take care for cheaters by crashing them. But looking at unfair grow while we hororable players struggle to find targets is not how Ogame should look like.

    So dont ask yourself why people leave the game. If GOs would show hand of justice in many cases, people would recognize it and appreciate it.


    You    're not afraid of the dark, are you?

    Reporting is all well and good, but;


    Its painful to have to be a detective and invest your time into spotting someone cheating and then providing evidence, and after all that nothing happens.

    Nevertheless i try to report and encourage others to do so as well, but it seems to me that no player can provide 100% evidence for pushing, this can only be reported by us and the GO should investigate in detail.


    Maybe you can tell us what you are looking for in reports that would help you see what is clear to us in game every day.

    I havent been in this game for 6 years and i see some good changes in game since then, but the problem of cheaters is even more present than before.


    I dont understand why GF is not doing anything new to try and put a stop to this, there is no determination and that means they are not bothered by the situation...


    One more thing i want to mention is that many new players dont have (might sound a bit pathetic) "honor" to say no to scripting and pushing, a shame really....


    Stay true never falter!!

    Looking forward to Discovery class nerf!

    Quote from Fra_Oliver

    Maybe you can tell us what you are looking for in reports that would help you see what is clear to us in game every day.

    I havent been in this game for 6 years and i see some good changes in game since then, but the problem of cheaters is even more present than before.

    Exactly with evolution of tecnology and players personal know-how question is even more evident.

    We players can help for sure, let's talk how?

    The best thing you can do is provide us your observations.

    However, I think there are a lot of misconceptions what it is to be a team member.


    I have stated this in my community but I will state it for yours as well:

    There are often things we know to be true but cannot prove to be true within the policies and procedures Gameforge has provided us.


    An accusation from a player (or even a group of players) is just that: an accusation.

    We have to find the proof in the data provided to us by Gameforge.

    People need to realize doing the job of a GO takes time.

    I recently did a scripting note which was 129 pages long in the event universe.

    I have conducted investigations which took a couple of months but netted me 40 bans when it was completed.

    You would not believe how many impatient tickets I received during those couple of months about why I was not doing anything.

    However, a ban would have tipped the player off and ruined everything because they would have changed what they were doing.

    It would have then cost me another couple of months to get the data to appropriately ban again.


    There are a multitude of factors for "why nothing happens".

    Bans are not always automatic.

    In a short summary why we might not ban:

    - We simply do not have the data to support a rule violation.

    - We see more going on and decide to be patient to get a more effective ban or bans.

    - It takes time to write up the notes to ensure the ban will not be overturned on an appeal.


    Because of the Data Protection Agreement (DPA) every team member signs to volunteer for Gameforge, we cannot tell you why we have not banned.

    I have said in my own community the removal of the pillory is one of my frustrations because it took away a lot of transparency what we are doing.

    Of course, all communities do not have enough staff which means there are not enough people to spread the load.

    We have to ensure we do not burn ourselves out and this is supposed to be a hobby for us - not a job.

    I can tell you from my own experience, I spend a lot of time looking at data - sometimes 10 or 12 hours a day.

    If I am at the 10th or 12th hour and I find a bot, there is no way I am spending another 2+ hours to write that note.


    I understand the frustration of players thinking the game team does not do enough or Gameforge is not doing enough.

    At the same time, I think the expectations of some players are too high.

    What is obvious to a player is not necessarily obvious to us and players have been known to be wrong before.

    We are required to follow the data.

    No ban happens without the data having been collected.


    Now, is this a perfect system?

    Absolutely not.

    I get it as both a player and a team member.

    Gameforge decided back in 2012 to change the ban system.

    They decided they wanted the bans to guide a player to playing within the rules instead of removing them from the game.

    For this reason, we have ban durations which are standardized.

    So, yes, in some cases players will be back to doing what they were doing before the ban in a short period of time.

    This means, the process of catching them starts all over again.


    I know I did not address the complaints of everybody in this thread but I want to provide some insight as things are not always what they seem.

    I cannot speak for every team or every community.

    However, being on the front lines as a game team member is completely different than being the casual observer as a player.

    Thanks for so exhaustive answer.

    That was a purpose of my thread, explain each other with what we have to deal with.

    I won't judge GF decisions regarding bans etc, I don't want to create steril discussions.


    If any got ideas how we can help each other, you are more then welcome. Cos ban of 1 cheater after 1-2 months, can mean many honest players crushed in meantime, with faster dead of servers.


    From my side, maybe one new thread could help, with players signalizing names of scripts/bots, so admins can test them in order to recognize them faster.

    Quote from kewlness

    Gameforge decided back in 2012 to change the ban system.

    They decided they wanted the bans to guide a player to playing within the rules instead of removing them from the game.

    For this reason, we have ban durations which are standardized.

    So, yes, in some cases players will be back to doing what they were doing before the ban in a short period of time.

    This means, the process of catching them starts all over again.

    Out of curiousity, how long is the ban fan bug abuse?

    Honestly, it depends on the severity of the bug use.

    If a bug was used but was clearly unintentional, we can and have give a warning.

    Intentional bug use can be 14 days all the way up to a permanent ban depending on the severity.

    Quote from kewlness

    Of course, all communities do not have enough staff which means there are not enough people to spread the load.

    We have to ensure we do not burn ourselves out and this is supposed to be a hobby for us - not a job.

    I can tell you from my own experience, I spend a lot of time looking at data - sometimes 10 or 12 hours a day.

    If I am at the 10th or 12th hour and I find a bot, there is no way I am spending another 2+ hours to write that note.



    You know what <3kewlness <3, You have always been my the most favorite staff member, because of Your efforts to make this game better place for players, intelligence, kindness, patience and humor sense :)

    It is very hard to walk on a tiny wire to satisfy the players base and Company Policy and You are doing it perfectly :)

    I , actually, think that You should be payed with real money for what You do here - for hours and hours of Your personal free time - the precious time that You gift to Players and to this Company .... time is 1 of 3 the most precious things in human life :)

    So therefore, I can't stop thinking how it is all unfair and dishonest towards the staff members and the players by the Company - not providing the adequate tools and full time job /hired /payed staff (GOs, SGOs etc) to ensure that caught ch3aters will be punished properly :) .... relying on someone's love for this game /volunteers is just matter of being selfish/greedy while making profit and manipulating with people's emotions as the most players will not complain so to not insult volunteers <3:)

    That is not nice and is not professional at all by the Company but as everything in life , take it or leave it :)

    It is , actually, very far from perfect , and because of this 2012 Policy changed the ban system - not removing ch3aters from the game caused the removing a lot of honest players from the game, spread them all through the clones or other war games or stop playing anything ...because not in some cases but in most cases after the ban ch3aters come back to do exactly what they were doing before :) .... old habits die hard but most likely never .

    Removing the pillory is :rolleyes:

    Soooo all in all , it was a long letter from me (haven't had anything smarter to do :biggrin:) in Your <3 honor and in honor to long term players <3 who have to cope how they spent years and years loving this game, spending the DM also for years and still they can't compete with overnight whales, weather being DM whales or ch3at-bot-abuse whales :)

    Just a little note and promise I will go to sleep ... what this Company seem not to understand is that what made this simple browser game, once, great were not a game features but a plethora of extraordinary players and personalities through the years ... saw some of the bests came to Quasar and quickly gone or others went blue or just keeping the account while not playing ...what a pity


    Excellent post about insight of the process it takes.

    This insight will be forgotten in time on account of building frustrations, new players and many players who aren't coming to the board. Me and hopefully others will share this message any time this kind of thread is made.



    Quote from kewlness

    We have to ensure we do not burn ourselves out and this is supposed to be a hobby for us - not a job.

    I can tell you from my own experience, I spend a lot of time looking at data - sometimes 10 or 12 hours a day.


    No one should spend 12h or anything close to that next to a full time job. Please, stop this! It's not worth risking your health.


    Hopefully staff will receive less pressure from community now, it's not worth harassing someone over this game.




    Well said Miss as always! I agree with everything.

    Quote from kewlness

    I can tell you from my own experience, I spend a lot of time looking at data - sometimes 10 or 12 hours a day.

    If I am at the 10th or 12th hour and I find a bot, there is no way I am spending another 2+ hours to write that note.

    Being a volunteer team member for this game can definitely suck you in and the next thing you know you are putting in a lot more hours than you originally committed to...


    Finding that key piece of evidence that ties tens if not hundreds of pages of data together that finally nets you that approval to ban someone who is cheating is a bit of a high but the frustration of knowing someone is doing something that you can't prove can be depressing...especially when you get all those tickets berating you for not doing something about it.


    Or to me, finding out the length of the ban just isn't commensurate with the amount of time and energy put into getting the ban in the first place.


    But ten to twelve hours is ridiculous...especially for something you volunteer for, if the paid staff had that kind of commitment to the players and the game this conversation would never even have to happen.

    Thank you Kwlness for your answer and your insight, its much appreciated.

    Quote from kewlness

    Because of the Data Protection Agreement (DPA) every team member signs to volunteer for Gameforge, we cannot tell you why we have not banned.

    I have said in my own community the removal of the pillory is one of my frustrations because it took away a lot of transparency what we are doing.

    Of course, all communities do not have enough staff which means there are not enough people to spread the load.

    So to me it looks like the workload is to high to even get the job done, you are understaffed, the investigations are too long, you have inadequate tools, too much "manual" labor checking data....

    How has this evidently broken system not been changed???

    Why does GF not care about the players and the game anymore?


    If there was desire from the owners this problem would long have been dealt with, instead we rely on heroes like yourself to invest countless hours on a game that is ruined by cheaters.


    Is there something we can do to demand a change? Petition, something? Im sure a lot of players would support any demand for a change

    Looking forward to Discovery class nerf!

    The root of the problem lies with GameForge's attitude to the players - they couldn't give a damn about them until they want them to be volunteer GOs and Mods, by which time they have so upset or frustrated the player pool that they get an insufficient number of volunteers - and those they do get are over worked and not adequately compensated, so they get frustrated and quit.


    Never ending downward spiral......

    ~The strong take from the weak, but the smart take from the strong~
    exiledvulcan.jpg
    U44/Quant/Jup/Betel HOF's = 576~ ~ ~481 Solo [10 Top 10] / 95 ACS [4 x #1 + 11 Top 10]
    ~~ RIP 7007+

    Quote from Vulcan_558

    The root of the problem lies with GameForge's attitude to the players - they couldn't give a damn about them until they want them to be volunteer GOs and Mods, by which time they have so upset or frustrated the player pool that they get an insufficient number of volunteers - and those they do get are over worked and not adequately compensated, so they get frustrated and quit.


    Never ending downward spiral......

    This genius solution (from business perspective) worked fine 10+ years ago when there were thousands and thousands of players in every community.


    But now the staff is on the brink of extinction and majority of players are from the golden age generation, which means the game will also go extinct eventually.