Turn off Skip Inactive/Empty Systems [Server Settings Change Request]

  • To the surprise of many of us, Thuban has skip inactive/empty systems enabled, despite this not being in the server settings listed on forums:


    What does this mean? Suppose in a fleeter is at 1:50 and you are at 1:100. In 8 out of the 10 universes that merged here -- Gaspra, Halley, Kerberos, Mathilde, Narvi, Ozone, Perseus, and Quadrantids -- the flight time would be calculated using the 50 systems (100-50) distance, as it has been for most of OGame's history. But here (and in Rasalas and Vela, the only 2 exodus universes with this setting), the flight time (and deut consumption) would probably be around 20-30 systems, because systems with inactives or that are empty do not count toward flight time. And you will not know exactly how long, without checking all the system in between 1:50 and 1:100.


    This means that Thuban is more dangerous than you might've expected just given the 5x fleet speed (which is already very dangerous). It is also very unintuitive, and not a setting that most of us are used to (as it's a setting that most of the exodus universes do not have). Worst of all, it makes it completely impossible to calculate flight times, without scanning through all the intermediate systems.


    For fleeters, this setting is probably neutral or slightly positive, since the shorter flight time before you get hit is cancelled out by the shorter flight time to targets (and if you're being hunted, you'll be launched at for from next system/in system anyways). But it's clearly bad for miners, who basically just get hit faster. And I think there's a server setting change that would improve the universe from the perspective of all players.


    Proposed Server Setting Change:

    As a result, I'd like to request the following server settings change for Thuban, as a single yes/no option:

    Quote

    Enable Flight Time/Consumption Ignores Inactive/Empty Systems, and 50% DF

    vs

    Disable Flight Time/Consumption Ignores Inactive/Empty Systems, and 60% DF

    I know that we likely cannot get it right now, due to the ongoing merge, but I think we should put this up to a vote as soon as the merger is over.


    Rationale:


    1) Why the small increase in DF?
    Because it'd be unfair if we made a setting change that only benefits miners. But more importantly, a settings change that only benefits miners but all fleeters (and their allies) vote against probably will not pass the 70% bar. I (and many other miners) would very much like this setting gone, and am happy to make small compromises in exchange -- 50->60% DF barely affects any miner, at least not in comparison to greatly reduced flight times.


    2) Why should miners support this change? Because when being hunted by fleeters, getting a pitiful amount more from wreckfield matters a lot less than simply not being hit. So for each miner, it makes them more safe, while barely increasing the profit of hitting them, and in fact decreasing the incentive to hunt miners instead of enemy fleeters, as hitting fleets is more profitable with higher DF%. (Also, skip inactive/empty systems is a bit silly and few of us are used to it anyways.)


    3) Why should fleeters support this change? Because when hitting other fleets (of which there are currently plenty thanks to the merge), 10% more DF matters more than slightly lowered flight times. Keep in mind that most hits against big fleets are either from next system/same system or MD, or both. (And again, skip inactive/empty systems is a bit silly and few of us are used to it anyways.)

  • It seems that the information regarding those settings is missing for all the universes on the forum index, but it has been announced with the universe (here).
    As soon as the merges are done the forum team will adjust the forum and that is a point for it.


    Regarding the settings, the Flight Time/Consumption Ignores Inactive/Empty Systems was already considered to be adjusted on Thuban, just missed before the merge started and we can't adjust settings while the process is ongoing, so it needs to wait for its end,

    All the targets will be open for polls after the Merges are done, just poke the Game Team and it will be arranged.



    Cheers,

  • Changes are scary. In this server I'm only mining, so I would go against my style of play, but my mentality is always aimed at those who put in the effort and look for an active game rather than a passive one which is rewarded less and less. That said, I've been experimenting with this feature for a while now and I really struggle to say that it shouldn't be implemented for several reasons: 1. It changes the tactics (a little). Not only for banal attacks like most, but also for slightly more sophisticated shots, it is possible to use this feature to organize traps or offensive moves. Furthermore, although it would seem that taking flight times is more complicated, in reality everything remains unchanged since in the fleet section it tells you exactly from point A to point B how many empty and inactive systems there are in the middle. 2. In this post-merger universe it is really difficult to find an empty or inactive system, therefore even if this feature remained it would be difficult to exploit it. In any case, I would use this thread to start talking about what the thuban community wants, given that reaching 70% of the votes is complicated, it would be important not to disperse them and therefore reach compromises before the voting begins. Honestly, I would leave everything unchanged, the only points on which I am more inclined to discuss and hear other people's opinions are: Fleet speed (considering a decrease) Debris percentage (favorable for possible increases) Probes with hold (I don't care)

  • Thanks for the response.

    1. It changes the tactics (a little). Not only for banal attacks like most, but also for slightly more sophisticated shots, it is possible to use this feature to organize traps or offensive moves. Furthermore, although it would seem that taking flight times is more complicated, in reality everything remains unchanged since in the fleet section it tells you exactly from point A to point B how many empty and inactive systems there are in the middle.

    Maybe I'm being stupid, but say I see someone launching from 1:50 to 1:120 with RIPs 30 minutes into the flight -- how do I figure out the flight time easily, if I don't have a planet at 1:50 or 1:120? I know non-MD timebacks are basically a lost art to many (to the point where every timeback is now greeted with cheating accusations), but I think they're an important part of the game, and this mechanic makes them much much harder to do. In general, mechanics that make figuring out exact flight time harder (and I'm counting lifeforms in this) are favorable to the new style of spy and fly fleeters and disfavorable to people trying to do anything more clever.


    That being said, if there's an easy way for me to figure out the flight time between arbitrary systems, I'd be less (albeit still) against it.


    2. In this post-merger universe it is really difficult to find an empty or inactive system, therefore even if this feature remained it would be difficult to exploit it.

    Insofar as this is true, this is a contingent fact about Thuban and not an intrinsic fact about the mechanic. (And it's not so true, there are plenty of systems with only inactives...) Over time, the universe will empty as it dies (as all universes eventually do), and the mechanic will make its weight felt known.


    Also, this doesn't really address the "it's really annoying if not impossible to figure out flight times" issue.


    Fleet speed (considering a decrease) Debris percentage (favorable for possible increases) Probes with hold (I don't care)

    You're not going to get a fleet speed decrease (which hurts fleeters) OR a debris percentage increase (which hurts miners) without some compromises. You're going to have to tie them together, if you want there to be any chance of them passing.


    In fact, my proposal above is exactly this -- by removing the skip inactive systems, this functionally reduces fleet speed slightly and is a very slight negative to fleeters (as a small but noticeable flight time decrease) and a slight positive to miners. To encourage fleeters for this, we tie it to a small debris increase, which is a very very (barely noticeable) slight negative to miners and a positive for fleeters.

  • No changes Uni is great :D The New Pro Server!

    Did you even read my suggestion?


    If anything, allowing for timebacks by removing skip inactive systems will increase the "pro"ness of the server. (And higher DF % means bigger bangs.)

  • I acknowledge that the suggestion has already passed and I am not a player in Thuban so it doesn't concern me. However I am not fully in agreement with some of the reasons for the change being requested and I'd like to clarify a few things.


    As a player coming from Rasalas, a server which has always had the setting turned on, I note a couple things to be incorrect in the original post:

    Quote from Astral_Codex

    And you will not know exactly how long, without checking all the system in between 1:50 and 1:100.

    The fleet dispatch screen (fleet2) will tell you the number of inactive and empty systems between yourself and the target. You can then use this information to easily work out the exact number of inactive/empty systems between two targets by adding or subtracting accordingly.

    Quote from Astral_Codex

    Worst of all, it makes it completely impossible to calculate flight times, without scanning through all the intermediate systems.

    By extension of the above, this is also not accurate. You just need to add a cell in your calculation spreadsheet to input the number of inactive/empty systems. If anything I'd say it adds some extra depth to the game as it takes an extra step in the calculation to calculate time backs (still a piece of cake though).


    After spending a year with the setting on, I came to really like the setting because it added an extra element of calculation to the game, as well as generally reducing flight times within the same galaxy. As the number of active players became smaller, so too did the galaxies to accommodate for it.


    Once again I have no horse in this race and I appreciate the desire for your universe to become a safer place. This is definitely still a valid reason. Just thought I'd clear some misconceptions about this mechanic that I personally enjoyed.

  • That's super fair. Perhaps I was a bit hyperbolic.


    While i'm happy the setting was disabled, I think it's a bit silly that it was disabled without any compensation for fleeters.

  • Hello:


    "Regarding the settings, the Flight Time/Consumption Ignores Inactive/Empty Systems was already considered to be adjusted on Thuban, just missed before the merge started and we can't adjust settings while the process is ongoing, so it needs to wait for its end"


    In fact, as explained in Prongs' sentence, this change was considered before the topic was created.

    The other changes that were applied during the merger to the target servers were not voted on. In the same way, this change wasn't voted on, it just couldn't happen at the same time as the others.

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  • Thanks for the response!


    Is there a reason this wasn't this communicated before the merge like the other settings? While I doubt this would've changed anyone's decisions, it's still pretty bad for people not to know what the settings of the universe they're merging into will be.

  • This, and why was an explanation not provided in the initial announcement by Prongs/Neotinea in this thread? Turning it off is one thing, but explaining to the players why it was turned off would be good communication. Thuban (as seen in Prong's linked post) always had skipping inactive/empty systems ON.