Posts by Crvt

    Best solution would be a cap that's fixed relative to either universe age or #1 points; or a cap that can be improved by lifeform researches.

    Keyword here is diminishing returns.

    - If there's a fixed cap then the feature is beneficial to some point until it isn't.

    - If there's no cap and no diminishing returns, the feature is binary (either completely worthless or completely broken).

    - If there's a cap that can be improved with diminishing returns on investment, the feature is in line with the balance of the rest of the game.

    Yeah.

    I think one of the proposed solutions was to make the current modifier percentage visible on lanx/overview.

    As in, not the speed flight %, but the modifier to the base speed.

    Other options would be to make things not affect speed or not be easily changeable, but atm there's too many things that can do that.

    TLDR, lag is most likely because of highscore calc, which scales with levels.

    And, unfortunately, that includes the tech that you have researched but not 'active' in some slot.


    So, instead of having like let's say 18 lvl 30 teches per planet, you now probably have closer to 72(4 races worth) lvl 0-10 teches per planet.

    So the amount of "levels" in LF tech for you didn't change much despite the reduction...so you still get lag.

    Yeah, you can reset teches in multiple ways, for free. Timebacks are pretty much relying on them not changing speed before/after launch, at the moment. At least for the fleetsaves, most ship speed bonuses still don't affect deathstars. Anything faster...whelp.

    Regarding timebacks, the espionage reports show summary of LF teches across all planets. You would need to check the planet they started from, for modifiers.


    As for restarting a new account...well, I haven't checked if mine got reduced like that, but if they wiped all tech levels that'd be annoying as hell.

    TLDR new account would only have 10M DM and, even with infinite resources, you'd need to keep making new accounts and upgrade all infrastructure on them just to test a few concepts.

    I may do that for some really critical problems, but for generic QA of everything that could go wrong?

    No thanks, it took actual 100 hours of clicking to level everything on one account, back when 1s 0 DM research is possible, I wouldn't be willing to even just repeat all that.


    Quote

    performance of server is still too low for me. Clicking lifeform tech tab takes 40-50 seconds, improving a tech or a building takes 20-30 seconds.

    If that's the case even after reducing the levels...well, that's how it'd become on LIVE, too.

    1% for ten levels of one tech per planet...there's many teches, all of that is further modified by race experience and buildings. All of that adds up.


    It'll take some time to calculate the effect of the new update after rebalance; but gut feeling tells me that lategame is still at 300/500%+ production increase. And that's quite a lot.

    And if early game gets "only" 100% production increase at low cost, that's still quite a lot.


    Regarding billion investments - that's only necessary to unlock tier 3 research; T2 is much more accessible.

    Yeah, the issue of planet building-based tech bonuses and race level bonuses not applying to the moon has been both reported and mentioned earlier.


    Regarding performance: I'm like 95% sure that the issue is with lifeform technologies, and, unfortunately, this also means that it'll lag the server even on a reasonable amount of planets and reasonable levels of technologies.

    After all, if it lags really bad on 28 planets having lvl 25 for 18 lifeform technologies on each, it'd be only half as bad on 14 planets.


    The reason I think all that is because the lag was scaling linearly with the planet count, as soon as those planets got enough technologies.


    I mean I'd be happy to be wrong but it looks like level reduction will be a small band-aid and a programming solution is needed.

    Ah, never-mind, I was testing on too low levels on deathstars(with them building over 30 minutes), saw no changes at all and stopped testing that part. Guess it was still broken on high enough levels.

    Hopefully that's another thing that gets hit with a nerf bat.


    AFAIK a severe nerf is coming to pretty much everything, we'll probably see the new numbers some time this week.

    ^exactly.

    Modifying/reductions are not a problem, but what I'd actually love to see is a high score calculation performance improvement. (Or whatever else that caused the slowdown).

    Because no one except the old pre-V9 accounts had big fleets, the ship build time is still 1 second after all. Edit: not sure, maybe someone found a way to break that as well, that could be a problem.


    Lifeform tech of lvl 20-30 on X number of planets should not be causing lag in the first place ;)

    Afaik the reason for the bans was that they were lagging the server.

    However, I kinda had at least half that lag even before increasing planet count from 14-16 to 28, so I cannot really agree with that very much. It certainly got worse, but at least half the lag was present even originally. It needs a programming solution. If the issue is the highscore lifeform research calculation, then 30 levels for 18 teches on 14 planets is at least half as bad as 30 x 18 x 28 planets.


    Either way, hope it gets sorted out in some way. Developing a new account at this point would require one to make a new account to test a couple technologies before running out of DM :)

    Vovo listed most of the things. I don't 100% agree with all of his points, but a good 90% will do and I'll try to not repeat them too much.


    I'm not going to focus on the balance too much, because cost/effect changes are coming to majority of LF features, and speculating before the final numbers doesn't help.

    Will be brief about the current state:

    • Sub 3 minute system flights with BCs in a x4 speed universe is not ideal.
    • Deuterium consumption of "1" is not ideal, specially not with refund in case of recall.
    • 7000+ attack battlecruisers are not ideal, and you can just assume that cruisers will be killing death stars, since one has tech buffs and other doesn't. Reapers and pathfinders, same issue.
    • Black hole reduction being possible at all is not ideal
    • x10+ boost of mining production is not ideal, specially since it stacks with metal packages
    • Performance on small account refreshing page is <1 second, on larger account on same server is 15-30 seconds. That is very very much not ideal.
    • A lot of technologies could benefit from clearer descriptions of what they do, most of all the class bonus technologies. It makes no sense to put something at tier3 that's fairly expensive to unlock, without describing its function.


    But yeah, a lot of current bonuses are getting rebalanced, so it all will need to be reviewed afterwards.


    General design feedback:

    • Food being lootable seems pointless, would work better as energy. As of now it is taking cargo space on plunder, if there was an option to never plunder food everyone would check it. Like vovo said, it is not realistic to feed your population with the looted food.
    • Population regrows so fast, you may as well remove the mechanic entirely and save some performance on population growth calculations. It takes what, less than an hour to go from 0 to your max capacity? May as well not exist, specially with bashing rules globally limiting attacks to 6 per planet.
    • It will be very hard to not over-buff collectors with this update, as there's so many more technologies boosting them, relative to f.e. discoverers. Of course, not talking about combat expeditions; if that's back, that is entirely its own(large) problem. Talking about resource/ship/dm finds, the amount of technologies and their %'s just don't compete with how many different things can boost mining production. Not doing anything playstyle should not easily eclipse active playstyles.
    • I personally don't have a problem with lategame collector overtaking discoverer. Disco gets quick growth fast that caps out relatively early, but that also limits people abusing multiaccounts and/or bots. Still, I'd prefer to see technologies that can, with diminishing return, modify the existing expedition find caps. In other words, that'd allow disco to scale into the lategame, while also not giving too much free resources to low point accounts that can be abused.
    • I am not going to compare balancing of general vs collector, since general's income is coming from what collectors mined and discoverers found. General, given enough activity and skill, will always be best while there's enough active targets of a relevant size; and if there aren't, collector is going to be better; that's just how ogame works. The update is making general more relevant with class bonus increasing technology, as extra deuterium reduction and speed increases can be seen as more valuable than a corresponding mining boosts from collector - provided the general boosts do not get axed hard in the rebalance. Either way, even if we disregard classes, matter of investing into mines vs fleet always depends on the universe and targets available.
    • However, designers should be very careful with overbuffing collectors. If collector becomes the most efficient playstyle per effort by a mile, that does not lead active players to "just" playing collector; it leads to them making a trade network across the community and abusing trade rates as the main source of growth; and their competition is left with a choice of doing the same(mind numbingly boring endeavor), or no longer competing. That just isn't healthy design. Still, considering that pilot profits come from collectors at their base, this problem is at least somewhat self-balancing.
    • Mechas will be very hard to balance in a way that they are not OP, since their unique buildings are just too good. Even if they get significant nerfs, it could still result in mechas not being OP early game but still being OP at some point in the lategame, simply because there's so many technologies to boost.


    Some current issues, all already reported:

    • Not sure what causes it, but something can make a fleet impossible to recall(error message on attempt)
    • Population race bonuses and building bonuses do not apply to moons, as moons do not have a race. Sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it doesn't (e.g. anything to do with fleet). Probably better to just make the moon inherit all modifiers from the planet under it.
    • Buildings that increase ship building speed do not work at all, at the moment.
    • Cost reduction mechanisms have many potential problems, across the board.
    • Technology bonuses have like 1/10 to 1/15 chance of not applying at all. E.g., recyclers having no cargo bonus, research being started without time reduction, fleet recall deuterium refund not applying at all, etc.
    • Obvious difficulties in timeback hits due to all the ship speed modifiers, suggested to have lanx display the modifier %, or make a sum-of-all technologies visible on espionage reports.
    • Large concerns about third party tools compatibility / necessary data being exposed in oGame API. We do love our simulators, calculators and antigame.


    Overall the communication is the best I've ever seen it at. Some of the issues have been resolved with beta11, such as deuterium consumption reduction technologies not working, planet updates breaking when population gets over cap, caps on teches being introduced(although %'s need rebalancing), etc.


    There will be a more detailed feedback once we have the next round of numbers.

    The moon / planet difference is the building and race modifiers.

    No tech effects at all usually was the result of population being over the cap disabling it. Not sure if that's possible in the latest update. A good catch and something to watch out for.

    ajanga

    The moon is not getting benefits from the planet buildings, or from race level bonuses, because it has no buildings and no population.

    In some cases it makes no sense at all, e.g. fleet speed bonus from planet is kind of useless, so that issue was reported. But that's the current reason for the difference you are observing.

    i would love to test this, but my account has been bugged with not being able to generate ANY RESOURCE for the past week.

    Seems this is more important than the other bugs, and it was left out. i literaly cant make 1 metal

    This happens when your population is over the cap. Adding or deconstructing a habitat-type building will fix it.

    ajanga

    Developers were notified about the...various ways to exploit the current system. Some they were aware of already and the fix is a work in progress, some were new.


    I'll make a writeup about the safer issues here this evening / tomorrow, as well as cap and balance suggestions; from many viewpoints.

    Haven't given deep thought or ran the numbers about parts of the update yet - such as mine production - just didn't have the time, will add it eventually.


    As for the bugs, haven't tested everything yet, of course, but now I have the means to.

    On that note, if someone needs resources, contact "HereWeGoAgain" in game(no need to reply in this thread, let's keep it on feedback). I don't have many ships to transport them with, but I certainly can speed it up for those who want to test the later stages in the new update.

    Just remember that testing balance in the early development is also important.

    I wasn't around for the closed MCO test, or I'd warn about it faster.


    On a good note, had a nice talk with ZeroChill in ogame's public discord, so communication actually exists this time.

    I don't know if it'll help at all with rebalancing, but I hope at least the critical issues will never hit live servers. Guess we'll see; for now, it is time to test as much as we can :)