Posts by Nebuchadnezzar II

    Hi everyone, It would have been awesome to keep that going but sadly my health was bad and had to stop playing (lot of physiotherapy taking most of my day and internet would have distracted me too much). I am happy to see that it was finally broken. Just to clear things up, I play as an aggressive turtle, a fast fleet (cruisers mainly) and no need to fleet save, because of the speed of the fleet you can attack many people and no fear of reprisals, the cruisers also make it almost impossible to use Light Fighters as fodder, Thanks for uploading this a sight to behold. Kudos to Blondie for keeping his promise :)
    My health is perfect now, full recovery. but obviously I am done playing.

    this is how most people do it. simply because i dont want to waste fields on my planets
    also you should maybe calculate the difference in time it takes to do certain research, because at the late game where astro takes 3months, taking a week of that doesnt really help that much, or when reasearch gets really long and takes over a year. how would these calculations help me know the difference in research time? because after all that is the point of research labs and IRN

    any1 can do the math on what is most economical to build in terms of cost, but its the time for research that counts.

    I did included that in the research, is what I called "amortization". Basically which of the two things (lab lvl or IRN) gives you more bang for your buck. The difference in research time is quite simple. Double the lab lvls is double the research speed. with IRN lvl 4 and lab lvls 12, that is 60(+1).
    with with IRN lvl 12 and labs lvl 19 is 247(+1). so it will be a little bit more than 4 times as fast. so it goes from 3 months to roughly 3 weeks. I believe it is worth it specially for those researches that are cheap in price but "expensive" in time (armor/weapons tech). I personally like to keep the lab working 24/7. If you feel like your research take too long but you have idle time between researches then you don't need more IRN or lab lvls you need organization. The good rule of thumb is, if you keep your lab working 24/7 and you amass the resources for your next research (without crippling your economy) when the research is 70% complete you need to improve labs or IRN. OR if you like to use research for resource saving then having IRN is vital to have your lab resource saving available most of the time.

    I have looked everywhere and NOT found a single guide in this topic so I decided to do the math. What levels should your laboratory be before you research the next level of Intergalactic research network (IRN from now on).
    I have done a method taking some things into account and there might be some bias. Things taken into account: Need to amass resources, research speed increase, "amortization" and discrepancy in deuterium and metal cost between IRN and laboratory level upgrade.

    WARNING: I am NOT taking into consideration previous levels (except on the first) of the lab since they are insignificant later on. meaning the price I will consider for the lab upgrade will be the last level. Also I will assume you keep all labs the same level (as you should).

    To simplify everything I am going to use the points given by IRN and the laboratory levels (tilting towards IRN because of lower deuterium proportion).

    We begin with the laboratory level being 11, that is 819 points. Then we do IRN lvl 1, 800 points.
    Now we level the second lab to lvl 11, that is 1638 points. Then we do IRN lvl 2, 1600 points.
    (we start ignoring previous lvl prices) we raise all labs to level 12, 4914 points. Then we do IRN lvl 3, 3200 points.
    All labs lvl 12, 6522 points (because we get a new lab). Then we do IRN lvl 4, 6400 points.
    All labs lvl 12, 8190 points (because we get a new lab). Then we do IRN lvl 5, 12800 points.
    All labs lvl 13, 19656 points. Then we do IRN lvl 6, 25600 points.
    All labs lvl 13, 22932 points (you should get it by now...). Then we do IRN lvl 7, 51200 points.
    All labs lvl 14, 52424 points. Then we do IRN lvl 8, 102400 points.
    All labs lvl 15, 117963 points. Then we do IRN lvl 9, 204800 points.
    All labs lvl 16, 262140 points. Then we do IRN lvl 10, 409600 points.
    All labs lvl 17, 576708 points. Then we do IRN lvl 11, 819200 points.
    All labs lvl 18, 1258284 points. Then we do IRN lvl 12, 1638400 points.

    Probably you wont get more than 13 planets and if you do a total of 234 combined lab lvls seems fine.

    You might notice some bias towards the lab at the beginning and some bias towards the IRN at the end. There are two reasons for this. First is that IRN gives more lab levels indeed and if we were to increase the lab levels by one on the later stages it would double the points surpassing the price of IRN. It makes no sense then to pay resources more for less research speed increase. Second is that in early stages of the game people are more active and crave crystals to colonize (Astrophysics). Therefore, saving up for one lab lvl at the time is much safer than saving the whole bulk for the IRN research.

    To be perfectly honest, this does not give you the best possible levels since the best speed to price ratio is a combination (Like having 5 labs lvl 15 and 5 labs lvl 16 with IRN lvl 9 for instance). However, I feel uncomfortable having different lvls of buildings in my planets so I keep them all the same.

    Open to any suggestions and if anybody does not share my opinion you are welcome to do the math and correct me.

    Hope this is useful.


    It definitely is an interesting read.

    Can I clarify - when you say don't mix defence... Do you actually mean that.

    Plasmas are often used to deter / delay rippers from raiding... A pure ion based defence feels like a rippers wet dream. (Coming from a ripper not a turtle)

    Should have been more clear about that. Do not mix with any other fodder defense. Plasmas and Gauss would still be necessary. The main idea of attacking with RIPs is that you dont lose ships. Therefore, they are usually sent without fodder. A simple 36 plasmas per 1 enemy death star ratio would work. In that sense, 100 RIPs vs fodder + 3600 plasmas or 500 RIPS vs fodder + 18000 plasmas and so on. I do not believe anyone would risk a slow deathstar fleet (since it can be ninja by allies very easily). For me I see death stars as defense, and combined with this ION strategy you get A LOT of shield every round. For instance.
    800000 light fighters + 100 deathstars vs 10 deathstars + 100000 Ion cannons = 8 of your RIPs remaining (Actually all of them if your shielding and armor tech is on a 1.3 to 1 ratio with your opponents weapons, 10 weapons vs 13 shield and 13 armor for instance)
    800000 light fighters + 100 deathstars vs 10 deathstars + 670000 light lasers = all of your RIPs destroyed
    800000 light fighters + 100 deathstars vs 10 deathstars + 50000 Ion cannons + 335000 light lasers = all of your RIPs destroyed ( even with the 1.3 to 1 tech ratio, So mixing them is the worst possible scenario)
    That is one hell of a crazy example but I hope you can see my point. Cheers.

    Interesting read. Definitely a very different take on this topic than what is usual. Your post is still pretty much null and void, because you completely overlook the primary factor explaining why so many of us discard building the Ions; economy.
    Crystal is a very scarce and valuable ressource, and usually the choke-point for account progression. RIPs, BCs, Dest, astro, plasma tech are all late game sinkholes for crystal, and even moon expansions, gauss and plasma cannons are projects demanding eschewed resources more worthy of that precious crystal. Sure the Ion cannon is not as outright bad mathematically in a combat situation as some make it out to be, but you will be forking over load and loads of crystal for those Ions - crystal better used elsewhere.

    Having played for several years as a turtle, I can confidently say the best defences are balanced but fodder-killing focussed. Forcing a potential attacker into a situation where light-weight fleets take too heavy losses, and heavy fleets requires too much fuel to fly, is what works best for deterring attacks.

    I literally started with "Lets begin. Ion cannons are often seen as useless because of their crystal cost" Also I am not comparing 10k ions with 10k heavy lasers but rather 15k to make up for market value. if you do some intense trading that can be offset. I do agree that on most cases Ions are not worth it. However, I wanted to point out that this strategy can turn your Draws and Victories into COMPLETE victories with near 0 loss making you defense more "permanent". It would be like buying expensive clothes that will last for a long time instead of buying cheap ones every now and then. The problem is... your defeats are still defeats. With intense trading is a viable strategy. However, very difficult.

    Good day.
    Are Ion cannons really worth it? and if so, when?
    The answer to those questions is...IT REALLY DEPENDS and if you are going to use them then be very clear in your choice.

    Lets begin. Ion cannons are often seen as useless because of their crystal cost and having less attack than a Large laser which they are often compared to. Is the Large laser better on every scenario? No. Here is why.

    I want to introduce a concept which is breaking point. This is the point where your Ion cannons lose their advantage compared to the Heavy laser (or any other fodder). But what happens before the breaking point? Simple, Ion cannons turn draws and victories into complete victories. Lets see some simulations.

    66000 Light lighter vs 15000 Heavy lasers = 39335 Light fighter remaining and 0 Heavy laser remaining
    66000 Light fighter vs 10000 Ion cannons = 40691 Light fighter remaining and 9900 Ion cannon remaining
    66000 Light fighter vs 60000 Light Laser = 3017 Light fighter remaining and 9000 Light laser remaining
    66000 Light fighter vs 60000 Rocket launcher = 23358 Light fighter remaining and 0 Rocket launcher remaining

    Yes, Yes, Yes... Defenses self repair and light lasers cause A LOT more damage but here is the catch. AS LONG AS THEIR SHIELDS ARE NOT SURPASSED (fleets without fodder or little fodder make this strategy useless) their refresh will make every round have the same effect as the last one, Close to 0. This compounds really quickly.

    76000 Light fighter vs 10000 Ion cannons = 51643 Light fighters left and 9463 Ion cannons left. (Any other of the previous defenses would be obliterated at this point)
    86000 Light fighters vs 10000 Ion cannons = 63613 Light fighters left and 7446 Ion cannons left. ( At this point even 22000 Heavy lasers or 72500 Light lasers would get obliterated)

    Now... what happens when we add the next 10000 Light fighters?... All Ion Cannons are destroyed. This is the "Breaking point".

    Why is this important? To protect your fleet. Yes the light laser deals more damage but Check this.

    66000 Light fighter + 450 Destroyers vs 60000 Light lasers + 200 Battleships = All lasers and battleships get destroyed.
    66000 Light fighter + 450 Destroyers vs 10000 Ion cannon + 200 Battleships = 7276 Ion cannon remaining and 153 Battleships remaining. So it protects any non-fodder ship orbiting in the planet by making the firepower of the fodder (which is what is killing the light lasers and then the battleships) useless.

    But wait it gets better, Lets not increase the fodder so that the breaking point remains the same and lets start adding 200 destroyers to the attacking wave.

    66000 Light fighter + 650 Destroyers vs 10000 Ion cannon + 200 Battleships = 6084 Ion cannon remaining and 133 Battleships remaining.
    66000 Light fighter + 850 Destroyers vs 10000 Ion cannon + 200 Battleships = 4839 Ion cannon remaining and 113 Battleships remaining.
    66000 Light fighters + 1050 Destroyers vs 10000 Ion cannon + 200 Battleships = 3411 Ion cannon remaining and 91 Battleships remaining.
    66000 Light fighters + 1250 Destroyers vs 10000 Ion cannon + 200 Battleships = 1612 Ion cannon remaining and 64 Battleships remaining.
    66000 light fighters + 1450 Destroyers vs 10000 Ion cannon + 200 Battleships = 162 Ion cannon remaining and 23 Battleships remaining.
    66000 light fighters + 1650 Destroyers vs 10000 Ion cannon + 200 Battleships = ALL DIE

    Even with 1600 Destroyers 1 Battleship and 1 Ion cannon survives with 90% chance.

    So, lets picture the Ion cannon as an Anti-fodder fodder. Is it worth mixing it with other defenses? Generally no.

    76000 light fighters vs 7500 Heavy lasers and 5000 Ion cannon = All your defenses die
    76000 light fighters vs 30000 Light laser and 5000 Ion cannon = All your defenses die

    When is this useful? Well... Imagine a large scale version of the Large protection dome it is not making it less cost effective to attack you but rather it is massively increasing the fleet necessary to make it worth it.
    Now... you may argue that causing damage to the attacker is more important because his losses will be higher and that makes it less likely that he will attack you. While I believe that when a larger fleet is required the attacker might chose to go for a more profitable target instead of using his larger fleet on you.
    Another thing is the higher the percentage of Debris a universe makes the more efficient this strategy is. To give an exaggerated example if there was 100% Debris generation He will not care about how many ships he loses because he will recover them all + your ships. In this case being unable to kill your ships will completely disencourage him from attacking.

    Bottom line.
    1- Do not mix Ions with other defenses. Either go full Ions or dont.
    2- Make sure that your breaking point is higher than any of the fodder that you fear attack from.
    3- The more shielding technology you have the much more effective this becomes. (if you have considerably more shielding that the enemy's Weapons technology your Ions will be able to tank Heavy fighters and cruisers)

    I hope this helps and gives you options for your defenses.